Is it Okay to Fire a Client? with Mark Fisher

[00:00:00] Hello, my friend. On today’s episode, I am back with Mark Fisher and we’re talking about how to handle client conflict, the inevitable sticky [00:00:10] situations where a member is unhappy once an exception, or just isn’t seeing eye to eye with your team. So we walk through how to make exceptions without being a doormat.

How to [00:00:20] respond when you think your client is wrong and when it’s okay to just part ways with our client. So if you’ve ever struggled with how to balance fairness and upholding your [00:00:30] policies when things get tense with a client, this is a kind of a must listen episode for you. And one more thing before we dive in.

I wanna tell you about a free opportunity. If you’re a gym owner with [00:00:40] over 30 clients or more, we’d like to offer you a free call. To help you get clear on where you want to go with your gym, what’s working, what’s not working, and [00:00:50] what the plan could look like to get there. We do this because we know some percentage of you will want our help to implement this plan, but regardless, you’ll get a ton of value from this free [00:01:00] brainstorm call.

So just click the link below in the show notes to book yours. Alright, let’s dive in.

1, 2, [00:01:10] 3, 4. Welcome to The Business for Unicorns podcast, where we help gym and studio owners create a business and a life they love. I’m your host, [00:01:20] Michael Keeler. Join me and the business unicorns team each week for actionable advice, expert insights, and the inside scoop on what it really takes to level up your gym.[00:01:30]

Get ready to unlock your potential and become a real unicorn in the fitness industry.[00:01:40]

Hello, fitness business nerds. What’s up? Welcome to another episode of the Business Re Unicorns podcast. I’m back with Mr. Mark [00:01:50] Fisher. Mr. Mark Fisher, how are you on this fine day? I am doing well. Yeah. How’s, how’s life? How’s work? How’s family? They are all great les to gymnastics this morning [00:02:00] and she would took her crazy pills beforehand.

She was particularly out of her mind and so cute. That’s this interesting uniquely exacerbating thing about having a almost 3-year-old daughter is this [00:02:10] toggling back and forth between like just shock and confusion and frustration. Inability to get her do the thing, but being in spite of yourself. So [00:02:20] amused and just finding so hilarious.

Just what a weirdo she is. I love it. Yeah. You were bound to have some version of a little weirdo and it’s, she’s a, she’s so delightful. She is so [00:02:30] weird. It’s really, it’s quite a delight. Quite a delight. The happened fall far from the tree. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. Let’s dive in. So today’s topic, what we wanted to talk about, I, I think it’s been a while since we’ve [00:02:40] covered this in the podcast, but it’s really essential thing that we all deal with on a regular basis as gym owners and entrepreneurs, which is customer issues.

When we have clients and customers, and I’ll maybe use those [00:02:50] words interchangeably today, is when there’s issues, when we have not met the expectations of our clients and they let us know in both constructive and not constructive ways. I wanna talk a little bit [00:03:00] today about just what our experience has been navigating those client issues when we decide to hold firm on our policies or our procedures when we choose to make [00:03:10] exceptions.

This is the kind of stuff that we often get our unicorn side members coming to coaching calls with is like this really sticky. Client situation where they’ve been a member for years and they got pissed off about [00:03:20] something and mm-hmm. They really want an accept. So it’s this kind of sticky client situation we deal with on an almost weekly basis.

Yep. As a gym owner, if not daily basis, depending on your scale. And so lemme [00:03:30] just, uh, zoom out and start with this question Fisher, like what’s your approach been to dealing with customer conflict over the last few years? I know it’s been evolving over the many years we’ve known each other, but recently, what’s your [00:03:40] current approach to handling this sort of thing?

I think there’s probably a, it’s hard to say because I think that so much of it depends right on the context, you know, I’ll start with like easy here. Kinda like [00:03:50] micro SOP is assuming the person is being reasonable. This is maybe not exactly like a high conflict situation, but the person is being reasonable and asking for some [00:04:00] allowance to transgress against some.

Policy or SOP or system that Jim has in place. My general rule of thumb is if, and that’s an if, [00:04:10] but if the person is being reasonable, and I do think I will. Shamelessly consider frankly how great of a client this person is. Yeah. And give like more or less latitude. [00:04:20] But regardless, my rule of thumb is the person can almost always get one get out of jail free card for any given policy.

Yep. And then we just wanna make sure it’s [00:04:30] notated on their account and that there’s a written record that we’re giving them an allowance. So a class example would be here the first time a new client blows through [00:04:40] perhaps a notification window that you might require to make to. Keep a credit in exchange for giving you allow enough notice that they’re not coming to a given session [00:04:50] the first time that happens.

I tend to say Get outta jail free card. And in fact, I remember at MFF we used a app, bit Lancer, I think was the name of it, that automated the [00:05:00] charging of no-show fees, which was something we didn’t have for a long time. We fund, like reluctantly put it in because it was enough of an issue and we’re like, all right, we need to discourage this behavior.

And [00:05:10] we even set it up. So the first time they. Did a late cancel or a no-show, it actually didn’t charge. So it was just set up as a default. The first time you do this, we’re not gonna charge you. [00:05:20] We’re gonna let you know if you do it again, it’s gonna be X and then we notate it. And I think you can use the same thing for freeze policies.

There’s all sorts of guidelines that you can do, and my general thumb is [00:05:30] one go gel free card, but we track it not to g jev, free cards barring something intense happening like a death in the fam or something like very extreme. So I’ll pull up there again, I don’t know. That’s not the [00:05:40] most. That doesn’t necessarily always couple with a fraught customer service interaction.

That’s maybe like a separate thing, but I think if you’re not approaching exceptions, that’s I think my [00:05:50] back of napkin approach to handling client requests for exceptions. Yeah, I think that’s a really strong one. I think that’s a, the crux of a lot of people’s, I. Tension with this issue is like, [00:06:00] where do I make an exception and where do I stand firm?

Mm-hmm. And getting caught between that. Like I wanna treat everyone equally. Yeah. And have the same policies apply. But I also, this client’s with me for 10 years and they pay [00:06:10] me 500 a month. It’s like, I wanna. I wanna honor that in some way without feeling like they’re walking all over me and my team.

Yep. And so I think that that’s an approach, that’s like [00:06:20] a, a systematic approach to navigating that, which is everyone gets one, get outta jail free card. Beyond that, you do try and kind of stick to the policy, try and stick to the plan, and that is [00:06:30] truly in the spirit of wanting to treat everyone equal and creating fair.

Kind of playground for all your clients. So I think the minute, and we’ve certainly got into this issue at MFF many times in the early [00:06:40] years where we would make an exception for this person and not this person. And they would hear about it, right? Yeah. Your clients talk. And so I think the more consistent you can be.

The better. Yeah. [00:06:50] Yeah. I’ll say this, that when it comes, generally speaking, there’s a lot we can say on this topic, but I think just our kind of best or top hits here is one of the things that the research is really clear about when it comes [00:07:00] to resolving client conflict is you have to do it quickly.

Mm-hmm. And it’s one of the things that we’ve had to. Cultivate in ourselves over the years, which is that kind of run toward conflict energy, where it’s [00:07:10] very easy to wanna recoil from conflict and run away and burn it under the rug or make it someone else’s problem or wait for it to go away or hope no one really notices.

And [00:07:20] the thing that is very clear in all the research is the faster you can resolve the conflict and address it with a person, even though it takes a little bit of time to resolve, but the faster that the client knows [00:07:30] that you are there. You care about that? Yep. You hear them, you see them, you’re engaged.

You wanna find a win-win solution. They’re more likely to not just stick around, [00:07:40] but stick around and stay for a long time like that, the speed really matters, and that’s an important message to get out to your team. You really have to teach your team. Like when you [00:07:50] see something, you say something so they don’t sweep under the rug.

Things that they think may not matter that much. Yep. That offhanded comment from a client or that under your breath, under the breath comment from the client that they [00:08:00] just, they don’t wanna have to deal with so they just ignore it, pretend it didn’t happen. Yep. When the reality is we should run towards that, we should actually investigate that quickly.

And I think my second thing I’ll say, just big picture [00:08:10] is so much of being the manager or owner when it comes to client conflict is being a detective. Is finding out like what really happened here? Yes. [00:08:20] So often we’re dealing with conflict that happened when we weren’t in the room or in the building or for people that were jumping in because it got escalated to us.

And, and we don’t want to assume [00:08:30] poor intent with anyone. We actually wanna assume good intent from all parties. We have to do some investigating and find out what really happened. And so that means just asking some. Important questions, asking lots of [00:08:40] questions of both parties before you make some decisions or take some next steps.

So something about being a real detective that I think has served me well when it comes to resolving client [00:08:50] conflict. Anything you would add to that? Yeah, I agree. I think another Pippin screaming. I think another, a distinction that might be interesting to [00:09:00] unpack here is if the clients, so now we’re not talking about just they’re requesting a.

An exception of some time. Let’s talk about like they’re, they have a mis expectation. They’re [00:09:10] upset. Just for the interest of a thought experiment to look at the two versions of this version. One I actually think is the simplest is when y’all messed up. I actually [00:09:20] think that’s the simplest, it’s almost easier when very clearly you agree with the client like ee.

Yep, we could have done that better. That is a. I’ve unfortunately have more experience I [00:09:30] care to admit over the years, just with a full throated apology of we mess things up for whatever reason. Maybe we can explore some other time at my why. Psychological is very [00:09:40] easy for me, but there’s something very easy for me to be like, oh yeah.

Whoa. I’m so sorry. We super messed that up. And that is, but it’s clear it’s such a gift. Yeah. When it’s clear this is not the way it was supposed to go [00:09:50] and it went that way. I’m sorry. That’s not our intent. Yeah. That’s not what we plan. Yeah. And it’s so relatively easy to diffuse because if nothing else, I can be accused of many failings, but not caring, not [00:10:00] giving shit has never been one of them.

So it’s very easy to. Further at this point too, I have so much experience knowing I am going to diffuse this just by make it clear to this person, you [00:10:10] are important to me. Your experience matters to me. We did not do a great job. And importantly also, here’s how I’m gonna do my best to make this right for you.

Like I wanna make this right for you. And I think I, I might [00:10:20] suggest that I. Two, like micro pieces of doing this effectively are restating your understanding of what the mis expectation was and [00:10:30] what, how they feel, what happened, normalize, why they might be upset about that, and then affirm to them, I wanna make this right for you, and then whatever comes next and that might be [00:10:40] given.

That could be all sorts of things, depending on what the transgression was. Hey there, business Unicorns podcast listeners. I’m just making absolutely sure you have already gotten your [00:10:50] free, instantly downloadable copy of my new book, the Little Book of Gym Marketing Secrets. You can find a link to download it in the show notes, or you can go to gym marketing secrets book.com.[00:11:00]

I worked super hard to make sure this is a less than 30 minute read and is a comprehensive overview of all the things you need to do to grow your gym. Get more leads, more clients, [00:11:10] importantly, change more lives. Again, find the link in the show notes where you can download your free copy at jim marking secrets book.com.

And now back to the podcast. I think the [00:11:20] second one, which gets a little bit sticker, which maybe you wanna take a first swing at this killer is when you think they’re wrong and in practice oftentimes is in between. So I think it’s an [00:11:30] important point you made earlier. The first step is always detective work because in the beginning like.

You might not know it’s happening. You probably don’t wanna assume that the team is an error to begin with, right? Yeah. Nor do you wanna [00:11:40] assume necessarily the client is always, uh, correct, because sometimes in fact they are, uh, factually wrong. Yeah. So, and oftentimes it’s messier. It’s in between. And again, that’s hard to talk [00:11:50] about in.

Vacuum of because of really you’re left with the unsatisfying. We need to start by asking a lot of questions, but let’s assume we get to the end of this road and we deal with the situation that [00:12:00] you’re going to deal with on a long enough time. Scale as a business owner, yeah. Where you really think the person is wrong, they’re legitimately very upset.

They’re very angry. Yeah. They’re packing [00:12:10] heat. You care that they’re upset. But you actually think they’re actually not being fair to you or the business or if their employee that they’re mad at. Totally. How am I, you suggest [00:12:20] someone go about diffusing and handling that situation. Yeah. I think in that case, what you’re acknow, you mentioned before, kinda the skills like acknowledging and validating, right?

Repeating back what they have said and validating their [00:12:30] experience. So in that case, what we’re trying to validate there is not that we agree with them, but we’re validating the fact that they’re upset for. Yes, they have every right to feel that way. That it makes perfect sense that you’re upset that X, Y, Z and happen.[00:12:40]

Anyone in your shoes, on your, your circumstance. Yes, it would, it would feel the same way. In fact, if I was in your shoes, I’d feel the same way. If that happened to me, I a hundred percent get it. And actually our approach to that is, is a little bit different [00:12:50] the way we see that as a business, a little bit different.

Let me explain a little bit how we think about it and that we’re trying to do there is just expose our logic. We’re trying to explain our thinking for how, why we do things the way we do [00:13:00] things. If that’s the case, why we have. A fee for a certain thing, why we have 24 hour cancellation, why we have contracts, whatever the case may be.

We have to let them understand a little bit of [00:13:10] where we’re coming from. Yeah. Will that always bring them over to your side? No. No, but we’re trying to do is just try to make clear why we have the approach we have or why it means the decisions we’ve had. [00:13:20] So hopefully you can find some sort of compromise or clear about where they’re coming from.

We’ve acknowledged and validated their perspective. We share a little bit of our perspective and pull back the curtain about why we got, how we got to the place we [00:13:30] got with the hope that we can meet. Somewhere in the middle, we can find some resolution that honors our logic and plans and thinking along with your needs.

And that’s like a, the, [00:13:40] the best win-win solution means everyone wins a little, everyone loses a little, right. Compromise means everyone walks away just a little unhappy, and that’s the best case scenario. For [00:13:50] most customer service interactions where they’re genuinely pissed and you have a difference of opinion about it.

But I think that’s the, those are the basic steps. Also, say that we have a playbook for this, for unicorn signing members, and I won’t go [00:14:00] through all the details, but we have this conflict roadmap conference that has kind of these five steps that are more or less what we’ve been saying here. So I’m just gonna say them out loud just as a, as a, a gift to our audience.[00:14:10]

It’s really five things you want to be part of. Every kind of feedback resolution conversation, it starts with, thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I’m so glad you shared this with me. It starts it. [00:14:20] Number two is, I’m sorry, I’m so sorry this happened to you. Whether I agree or disagree, right?

I’m saying, I’m sorry you had this experience with us. It’s not the way we like to do things. I wanna make it right. I’m on your team. Number [00:14:30] three that happens in this conversation is like, lemme make, let me make sure I understand where you’re coming from, what happened. We’re understanding their perspective, understanding what they experienced.[00:14:40]

Number four is how do we fix it? How do we make this right for you? What can we do to get you to win you back? And number five is like, how do we, what’s next? How do we hold ourselves accountable to [00:14:50] making sure this happens? And so it’s not rocket science, but just those five things. Thank you. I’m sorry.

What happened? How do we fix it? What’s next? Just [00:15:00] those five things give you a little bit of a roadmap for how to have this conversation in a way that kind of honors you, honors them, and gets to some action step that hopefully is a reasonable [00:15:10] compromise. Anything you would add to that? No, I don’t think so.

No. It’s a complete system. Yeah, it’s simple. Not every conversation’s gonna be that formulaic or give you a chance to do all [00:15:20] five of those things in one conversation, but it gives you a checklist for the most important kind of points to hit when you’re trying to deescalate a co conversation and find common [00:15:30] ground.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that maybe is a final thing I’m reflecting on here too, which is relatively more recent arsenal, [00:15:40] I think, in my war chest, is firing the client. Yeah, and just being like, we’re just, we’re not gonna win this, and I am not. Because [00:15:50] kindness I think is important value to me. I’m probably never a proponent of just letting it rip, and I don’t think with a professional relationship, I believe in candor with the people that I choose to work with that are a part of my [00:16:00] chosen work tribe.

With customers, it’s a different standard and sometimes I’m happy to let them go away. And I think, yeah, there’s a case you made to just in some situations, offboard the person. Yes. [00:16:10] And I think sometimes you might need to do that by swallowing some pride if you wanna. Make it as relatively lubricate as possible.

But here’s another thing, if I could just speak to something annoying [00:16:20] that every business owner deals with, is you’re just not gonna win every chat in the same way, no matter what your politics are. You’re not gonna win the chat with your uncle that thinks [00:16:30] the opposite of you at the holidays. It’s just not gonna happen.

And in this situation like it, it’s also like you could maybe make the case of depending relationship with your uncle that it’s worth going [00:16:40] into the breach again, because maybe there’ll be some deeper understanding with this. If you have a sufficient number of clients over a long enough timeline, you will, you’re just not gonna win them all.

Yeah, and the particularly most [00:16:50] annoying and vexing version of this is the person that is convinced that they’re a consultant. Okay. Vincent. I am a business genius and I know business, so I’m gonna help you out here. Stupid gym [00:17:00] owner, right? We had our fair share, of course. I can’t remember who I was talking about this too recently.

It was somebody who was like, why is it Chris Travis, one of our coaches, who’s one of the smartest business people we know? Yes. I think we’re talking about this, about, yeah, about when your [00:17:10] well-meaning client gives you advice on the business. And listen sometimes, like again, that can be. That’s always a form of love, right?

Feedback is always a form of like care, but there’s a version of this [00:17:20] where the person is just so irate that you won’t give them what they want, and you’re just convinced. It’s obvious to you and everybody in the world that what I want is true, and it’s [00:17:30] obvious. I’m, I should be grieved here. And the older I’ve gotten, the more I’m going to just like.

Let that person go. Yeah. And you can find disingenuous, but also like maybe some of you listening, [00:17:40] I’ll just like smile and send you off into the sea. Yeah. Yeah. Because at a certain point you’re just, you’re not gonna win. I’m not gonna win that conversation. I just don’t have enough time. I’m be dead soon.

I got a [00:17:50] kid, I got stuff going on. Yeah. We’re not gonna win. Thank you for your time here, let’s. Let’s make this relationship come to an end. Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. Fisher. I don’t think I have much to add other than say, listen, they have plenty [00:18:00] of choice as a consumer as to places they can go and find a good fit in most markets, at least in the United States.

So there’s options they have in almost any place they live, there’s multiple [00:18:10] gyms they could go to. And if there’s so much friction that you are in regular conflict conversation with certain clients, it’s not worth it for you or for them to have so much of your [00:18:20] energy spent on managing that relationship, they can go somewhere else and, and you’ll find other clients that are a better fit.

Yeah. For the way you like to do things. That’s not to say we don’t ever bend, [00:18:30] don’t say we ever compromise. Yeah. But it’s to say when there’s a real obvious mismatch between what they want and how you do your business, it’s, you’re not gonna win ’em over. I, I agree completely. Yeah. It’s time to just pull the rip chord [00:18:40] earlier in some relationships.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s true because the, maybe a final comment on this is there probably is a time and place in your relationship with a client to [00:18:50] have a difficult and candid conversation around how you feel. Sure. I think probably a, maybe recurrent. Conversation here in this business is like, how do you just [00:19:00] bring your full humanness into those relationships?

And I think there’s a time and place where it’s probably okay to keep a little bit more space and intentionally choose to allow it to be [00:19:10] transactional. ’cause you know you’re not gonna win. And there’s probably time and place where based on your relationship with a person, you’re willing to share the impact that a certain conversation has had on you.

I used to always say at our [00:19:20] MFF Day, by the way, BIS unicorn’s clients, you are. I love you MFF people. If you’re listening, you are not. I love you, NJA. Were very fraught. It just doesn’t happen anymore in this business. You’re all [00:19:30] like such, you’re, it’s reasonable people. But MFF land, I would always maintain like the most extreme example of our value of candor, which again, you don’t do in every situation.

You have to be judicious [00:19:40] about this because there’s only so many hours. There’s a lot of clients. Is acknowledging to the client and being real and being human with them. It really hurt my feelings when you said X, right? Yeah. Like I, or I [00:19:50] rather I felt X, right? Yeah. Again, I don’t think you need to do that all the time, but I do think there, based on your relationship with an individual, I’ll also give you a little bit of bandwidth.

Sometimes you probably can and should have [00:20:00] the conversation, and that might be if it’s the right person, you choose it well, and it’s handled well. Could be a very actual positive and growth-minded experience and conversation [00:20:10] for the both of you. 100%. We all have experience of people we’re closest to in life.

In many cases we’re close to, because we made it through tough times together. We made it through some tension together. We work through things together. [00:20:20] We build stronger bonds through, through things that broke. And I think that can be true for clients and in some cases we need to set boundaries that we’re not willing.

To do that kind of emotional labor with clients and that’s [00:20:30] okay too. But I think, I think the point you’re making here, Fisher, was just like, we gotta be okay to let people go. There’s some conflict that’s not worth the time and energy and effort to resolve it or [00:20:40] is not resolvable, and that’s not that anyone’s failing.

That’s okay. It’s okay to let it go. Yeah. All right. Let’s pull up there. I think it’s a little bit of a bummer maybe. I hope it’s not a bummer to end on. [00:20:50] I hope that’s, I hope that’s feels empowering. Yes. Right. I hope that feels like an op opportunity and a, an option you have on your plate listeners, but, but let’s end it there.

I think client conflict is a. [00:21:00] There’s a lot to talk about here, but hopefully it gave you all some pointers and tips for how to navigate it thoughtfully. Yes, and I really appreciate the conversation, Fisher. Yeah. Hope you all go and fire a couple clients this afternoon. [00:21:10] Have a good one, y’all. I’ll see you on the next one.

Bye.[00:21:20] [00:21:30]

Go.