Episode 337

Struggling to Hold Your Team Accountable? with Mark Fisher

In this episode, we talk to Mark Fisher about the struggle of holding your team accountable.

[00:00:00] Hello, my friend on today’s episode, Fisher and I are talking about the trials and tribulations of trying to hold your team accountable as a manager and leader of your gym. It’s really tough to get people to do what they say they’re going to do on a consistent basis. It’s just as much of an. Art as a science, and we walk through what’s worked and not worked for us over the years.

So if you’re a new manager or a seasoned manager, looking to improve your ability to hold people accountable with integrity, this is a great episode for you. So keep on listening.

Welcome to the business for unicorns podcast, where we help gym owners unleash the full potential of their business. I’m Kehler. Join me each week for actionable advice. Expert insights and the inside scoop on what it really takes to level up your gym. Get ready to unlock your potential and become a real unicorn [00:01:00] in the fitness industry.

Let’s begin.

Hello, fitness, business nerds. What’s up? Welcome to another episode of the business for unicorns. Podcast before we jump into today’s topic, I want to give a quick shout out to our friends at forever. Fierce, uh, summertime can be a really fantastic time to launch some new merch at your gym. If you’ve never launched merch before, or it’s time for those summer tank tops and shorts, our friends at forever.

Fierce do a really great job at standing out amongst all the possible companies you could go to, to do merch for your gym. They help with design. They help. Ship all the things directly to your customer. So you don’t have to keep anything in your gym. And if you tell them business unicorn sent you, they will take extra special care of you.

So click the link in the show notes and go check out our friends at forever for yours to help you make some fierce gym merch for your gym. That being said, let’s dive into today’s topic Fisher, which is all about team accountability. So first, how are you, my friend? I’m doing good. I just can’t help but associate Forever Fierce with drag queens, which I don’t think is [00:02:00] telling their avatar, but that’s amazing.

But I love it. I love it. That’s what it is. Forever Fierce squirrel. Forever Fierce. It is. I love the word fierce like that. That’s amazing. I’ll also just one more thing about Forever Fierce. We actually use them. I mean that positive sponsors don’t get mad at me. We should edit this out. We like you Forever Fierce.

You’re great. I just think it’s funny. We love you. We use them at Mark Fisher Fitness. Our merch comes from Forever Fierce at Business for Unicorns. Every piece of merch that we do at our retreats comes from Forever Fierce. They help with the designs. They’re fantastic. And I love that. It’s just got a little attitude.

So you’re good. Spring’s good for you so far. Yeah. Yeah. It’s definitely a whole lot going on. On right now in my life, all positive slash can you get older? And that’s a lot having all these plates in the air, but I feel like I’m managing well and have lucky to have worked with a lot of people to make sure that all plates in the air, so I don’t have to do it all alone.

Yeah, that’s a good, that’s a good framing for today’s conversation, because as all of you listening, as you all, you entrepreneurs and gym owners start to grow your teams and have more [00:03:00] and more people you’re working with more and more people you’re relying on to. Get shit done in your personal life and your professional life, having a process to make sure that you can ethically and consistently hold people accountable and make sure people will do what they said they’re going to do is one of the biggest challenges in working collaboratively.

At all in any industry, in any facet of a life. Um, and certainly as you are, if you are the owner and you’re at the top of the so called power pyramid, if you have your gym, that it’s even harder because you have a different way of relating to everyone else at your gym. So holding people accountable can be really tricky dance, but one to just talk through some lessons we’ve learned in helping hold, holding people accountable and walk through a framework that we use called the CPR model for how we think about holding people accountable.

First things first, Fisher. We’ll just talk through what’s your journey been like as a manager over the years for your relationship. What’s your relationship been like in holding people accountable? Like what’s that? How’s that evolved for you? Yeah. [00:04:00] Certainly it was not fun in the beginning and I don’t think I was particularly good at it.

Like most people. Ben Horowitz, venture capitalist wrote one of my favorite books about management and actually business in general called the hard thing about hard things. And one of the points he makes in the book I think is a good framing for this convo is just this is the most unnatural thing in the world.

It’s just not. Maybe there are some people that are just wired to hold other people accountable or give other people feedback. But in most relationships in life, that would really be considered inappropriate. And when you’re in a professional relationship with someone, you have to learn what for many people is a very unnatural skill.

Furthermore, it can be very difficult if you don’t have any sense or any, you’ve never seen it modeled. If you don’t have any kind of frameworks to use. And then of course, if you care deeply about the relationship, That too can present its own issues, right? Particularly a lot of gym owners I know struggle with something that was certainly a challenge for us for a long time when you’re friends with your employees, that also feels a little weirder to hold them accountable to any sort of violation of performance standards.

So I think [00:05:00] that’s maybe the first thing to start this framing is this, it’s going to feel weird in the beginning. If you’ve never done this and we’ve taught this before, and odds are, you’ve Probably weren’t because unfortunately there’s, you’d be very lucky if you found a place where it was modeled very well and you got to see what this looked like.

Yeah. 100%. And we’re both examples of people who when we first started managing, it felt really awkward for, and especially as we became like owners and founders of a company and our friends worked for us, it was even new levels of awkward. And it is a thing you can get better at. It is a thing, it’s a learned skill, a conversational skill, mindset shift also required in here that you can get better at it with practice.

I’ll also say that one of the things that does make it a little easier, and we’ll have time to dive into this, this broader conversation today, but is to make sure that you’re building strong relationships with the people you manage, I think is the quality of the relationship. Dictates how comfortable or uncomfortable these accountability conversations are.

And so I think that’s a larger context that matters, but let’s just [00:06:00] start off by maybe just sharing the model that we use and we walk through with maybe a few examples of how to use it. So yeah, kick us off Fisher. Sure. So yeah, as you mentioned, it’s funny. We were joking before we filmed this podcast. We don’t even need to look at the playbook for this one because this is one that I use a lot.

I talk about it a lot. Basically, everybody I work with has to manage other people at some point. We have to have a conversation around what we call CPR, so giving credit where it’s due. This is from a book called Crucial Accountability and essentially it is a simple framework that allows you to escalate the accountability conversation and avoid what we call Groundhog Day accountability conversation.

Because a common concern we see for newer managers is they feel like I’m having the conversation and they’re getting increasingly frustrated. But the behavior is not changing. And oftentimes when we dig into this, we discover the issue is because you’re having a variation of the same conversation over and over again in the same way with some other words and the other person, the other side, it’s not really making any kind of emotional impact that anything, temperature on your [00:07:00] part is rising.

If there’s any additional higher and higher stakes that they, you really need to see the performance change. There’s going to be real consequence and a cost to them. So the framework is called CPR and it’s an acronym. And we’ll unpack exactly what it means, but essentially it’s content. First, you talk about the thing, then it’s the pattern.

Then you talk about, this is a thing that’s happened more than once. It’s a pattern. And then you talk about the relationship. So it’s not just a thing and it’s not even just that it’s happening more than once. It’s the fact that this is starting to have a real cost for our relationship and our ability to work together the way we both want.

Yeah, I think that’s a great overview and I’ll just double down by saying friends, if you’re not getting new results, it’s often because you’re not having new conversations, you’re having the same kind of dialogue over and over again. And we understand why that happens as we get in these very comfortable patterns with each other.

We don’t ever step outside of those patterns. And so you have one of having the same kind of conversation over and over again, and then wonder why nothing’s changing. And so we’re going to talk about how the content of the [00:08:00] conversation needs to change and evolve over time. But also does the tone of the conversation and the consequences need to change over time.

So there’s a lot of things you need to shift to push forward. Um, for new action, and we’ll start with this CPR, which is really the content of the conversation needs to change. So at level one, we’re talking about really acknowledging the content of the behavior that we don’t like. So I mean, just walk through, what’s an example of this Fisher?

Yeah. So this would be the first time a thing happens, right? Because I think we would all agree, let’s say just for us to put some meat on these bones. Yeah. Yeah. Give yourself a hypothetical employee that you have a lot of trust in, and they have a lot of respect for you, and they mess something up once.

That doesn’t mean that we’re not going to talk about it. And it just should be easier to talk about it because it’s not a big deal, right? Because we’re not dealing with a massive pattern or relationship blow up or trust, but you do want to acknowledge, Hey, Billy, I noticed you were running a couple of minutes late from class.

Everything okay? And usually this conversation can feel a little bit lighter. It can be a little bit softer there. One of my favorite [00:09:00] books actually on this topic is a book called good authority. And one of the, they refer to this as the mention, right? It’s just like a mention, right? But you do want to mention it because the mini challenges.

So if you’re not actually having the conversation every single time, that’s, I don’t think particularly fair to the person you’re managing because you’re going to start to get slowly more and more annoyed, but you haven’t told them what was going on because I’ll. Make another argument for why that is so important is and most of us have been in the situation before in our life once where you’re having a conversation just feels so heavy because there were things that you hadn’t been saying all along that had you been saying them, it wouldn’t have turned to a giant monster under the closet that are monster under the bed that now you got to deal with.

Yeah. That’s the number one thing we see all the time when we talk to unicorn study members and coaching calls with them is that they downplayed how annoyed they were by the thing so many times. Like, Oh, I didn’t matter. It was only a few minutes late or I know that they know the right thing. They just, they didn’t do it that time.

And they kept sweeping under the rug, sweeping under the rug until under the rug is not just some [00:10:00] dust anymore. Now you swept under the rug, a mountain of resentment, right? And then when you go to have the conversation, you’re trying to manage all of those like weeks and weeks or months. and months of pent up thoughts and opinions and feelings, which is just sucks.

And then it does make it such a big deal. And it’s not fair to you who’ve had to hold on to all those resentments for weeks or months. It’s not fair to the person who’s been unknowingly pissing you off all this time. And so I think you guys want to double down and say, yes, you got to do the mentions.

You just got to get in there and have those casual first time reminder conversations before it turns into anything. Thank you. They have to sit down and close the door for. Yeah. And I would also offer that if you’re like, your heart is sinking as you’re listening to this, cause you’re like, Oh no, I messed up.

You can fix anything. You can repair things. You can go back. But in that situation, honestly, the conversation probably starts with, I don’t know, if I were in your shoes, it probably started in a polity. And acknowledging like, Hey, I want to share, I have been feeling very frustrated with you and I want to start by apologizing because what has [00:11:00] not been fair to you is I have not been having a conversation with you about every single one of these items and you might not even have known about some of these things that You know, from where I’m standing seem like a very clear violation of our standards.

And in a perfect world, I would have been having the conversation all along. So I want to acknowledge I’m coming to this feeling frustrated with you. I feel frustrated and I’m sorry that we’re here now. I’m sorry that this is where the conversation is starting. I want to own my piece of that. Beautifully said, Fisher.

I think it’s a great example of how to clear the slate, own your part in it, and try to start fresh. So, let’s assume people have done that. Let’s assume that they’ve acknowledged the content, they’ve had a few mentions, people know there’s a behavior that is unwanted, like a lateness or a missing of a standard, and we have to escalate.

We see the same kind of behavior again. And we’re moving to the P in the CPR, which is a pattern. So walk us through what this sounds like. Yep. So again, let’s go back to our hypothetical example of someone that for the most part is a superstar for you. The first time it happened, it didn’t have a lot of emotional valence for you because [00:12:00] Who cares?

If it’s one thing, none of us are perfect, fine, but you’re such a great manager. You did have the conversation. So there was a memory of you having it, that you had an encounter. Now let’s say hypothetically that this individual was late a second time, one week later, right? So it’s not like the next day, but it’s in a short enough period of time, you’re like, okay, something’s going on here.

So now the conversation is not about being late. It’s about this is now happening again. We’ve already talked about it. And again, depending on the context of this person’s performance in your relationship, As you, it’s usually a good look to lead with curiosity, right? Because usually there’s things you don’t know, but at the very least, this conversation is not a casual, Hey, I know it’s your company.

It’s late. Everything. Okay. No, you’re good. Okay, cool. Great. So I can’t, you know, have it again. Okay, cool. No problem. You’re great. Hey, do you want coffee? The pattern relationship needs to feel a little bit heavier. And one way to signify that is having somebody change their physical environment. So instead of just a casual mention, this should feel a little bit heavier.

And I’m not trying to suggest you’re manipulative or put on a mad face, but things like, [00:13:00] Hey, Mrs. Rossini. Can I talk to you for a second? And then you bring Mrs. Rossini, maybe different place, maybe inside an office. Maybe you don’t close the door and sit down, but you do want this to feel a little heavier and acknowledge this isn’t just the thing.

I now notice this is the second time this has happened a couple of weeks. And again, you could, if I were doing the full thing, maybe you would ask them, indulge me, tell me why does this matter to the clients? Why is this so important? We’re here on time, right? That may or be not annoying and golden, the lily probably depends on that person’s like level of development.

But I think what you’re getting to is this is a bigger deal. I trust that this is not going to happen again, but I would acknowledge this has happened more than once, which is unlike you. And it’s very important. Doesn’t happen again. Yeah. I think that’s a great example, Fisher of how you’ve changed the tone by changing the context by getting maybe behind closed doors, sitting in an office, pulling someone aside, right?

It’s a different vibe of a conversation, right? And you’ve changed the thing you’re talking about, which is not just a single behavior, but Pattern of behavior that we’re noticing that really has to change. And I [00:14:00] think also when you get this level two, the only thing I would add is that you might want to get more specific about what are we going to do next?

What is the next step I can expect from you that shows me that you’re being proactive about this not happening again. And that, and by doing that, you’re also changing the consequences. The consequence is not just that I pulled you aside and talked to you. The consequence now is that I’m going to hold you accountable to doing something different, right?

Whether it’s doing some retraining on something or getting an accountability to help you with accountability, buddy, to help you with something or right, whatever the case may be, but there’s got to be some consequence to, to this second conversation. Yeah. Also just, yeah. And I think the. Go ahead. Sorry.

You’re good. I was gonna say, I will pause here and say, one of the things that is unspoken in our conversation so far, I just want to call out is that in order to do any of this, you at first, which is a whole nother podcast, have to have standards, have to have well communicated. Expectations for what good performance looks like in every way for what lateness [00:15:00] looks like, what being on time looks like and all the rest of the things we could be talking about.

So I just wanted to say that out loud as these accountability conversations get real smushy and even more difficult if you have, do not have SOPs for things. But let’s imagine they do. What were you going to add to that, Fisher? I think that I would just acknowledge that this is a good example because it’s so obvious and oftentimes there it’s a little bit more complicated because sometimes even if you have standards there’s room for different perspectives, right?

And that one gets thorny where you think they’re not doing something and maybe they’re getting defensive because they think that by their assessment that they are. Lateness is a good example just because it’s so clean and And I would, particularly because you’re listening to this podcast, you might be one of these people.

Cause I was one of these people. And I see this happen a lot with those of you that are on the softer side of Sears. I think extreme ownership is a great book. I think it did damage to some of us, probably. That’s why Jaco had to write a second book. The Dichotomy of Leadership was like, no, Mark, that’s not what I meant.

You want to be careful that you don’t go [00:16:00] so far in your own extreme accountability that. You feel like, how am I going to, how am I going to support you in being here on time? I think there are certain standards that are clear enough that it’s also okay to say, look, as an adult, I’m gonna expect you to get this figured out because we’ve had situations in my professional career where I actually had, I had a disciplined, the manager.

For over a soft handed thing, like, all right, well, I’m just going to, you know what, I’m going to, I’m going to help you. So what I’m gonna do is every night I’m going to text your schedule for the next day, so that way you don’t get confused. No, that costs the business money and it costs your time. And that’s not helpful.

That’s absurd, right? So there are certain lines here, I think, where depending on what the thing is, you can only help people so much. And I think one of the great gifts I got from an HR consultant, we had hired once at MFF, which I guess I say, it’s that loud, It’s so simple, but it was really revelatory at a time.

He’s like, at a certain point, you can only be as clear as you know how to be. And you can always acknowledge up. I guess I, I could have been clear and maybe I just wasn’t the right person to be clear to you, but this is as clear as I know how to be. And an impartial spectator would stand by me. [00:17:00] This was clear ish.

So I’m so sorry. It wasn’t clear to you. I own my piece of it, but yeah, totally. Yeah. I’ll give one more hack here because we’re using lateness, but let’s just use something that’s a little squishier as an example here, which is oftentimes we want trainers to have better energy. When they’re on the floor, we look at a trainer, how that trainer just doesn’t have great energy when they come in the morning or they’re not bringing the energy.

And when that’s squishier than anyone could watch a trainer from across the room and have a different interpretation of their quote energy based on body language, words, all that. And so that’s one where I don’t know that I could expect them to just be an adult and figure it out. I do need to work with them and guide them on what are the observable behaviors I’m looking for when I watch them from across the room.

Then I really expecting to see, is it about loudness of voice and eye contact and posture? And so I think there’s certain squishy things like that, where I am going to spend a little time holding their hand, but I’m not going to hold their hand when it comes to being here [00:18:00] by 8 AM. That’s, I think that’s a good example.

I think of the opposite end of the spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. Cause of course you’re always looking to drill down to what are the observable behaviors, right? And energy is a great example because energy is a story, right? It’s not always clear what energy means. I will say hilariously. That one is a. I wouldn’t say like a sore spot, but my experience has been, if I’m having to talk to someone about energy, I’ve probably made the wrong call.

They’re not long for the world. If I’ve hired someone, I do have an obligation to give them a chance. So even though in retrospect, I maybe should have stress tested them and understood this person just doesn’t have the chops for this kind of role. There are actual things you can point to. Yeah. It’s body language, how loud you’re talking, the speed of pace, right?

Some trainers, it’s not intuitive them that silence is actually not okay on the floor. Right? They’re thinking like, Oh, I’m like a Nick Winkleman. I’m going to be in silent to help you listen. What’s on your body. It’s no, that sounds creepy when there’s a little bit of silence after a certain period of time, that’s when you should have a small repertoire of questions to ask such as, so what’d you do this weekend?

And younger trainers sometimes like really won’t get it. So [00:19:00] anyway, just a small example of, I think again, something can feel squishy. You can turn into behaviors. 100 percent All right, so we’ve covered level one, which is basically acknowledging the content of someone’s behavior. Level two, where we’re escalating the tone, we’re escalating the consequences and the content, we’re talking about the pattern of behavior we see.

And the R in CPR is really about acknowledging the cost that this repeated behavior is having to your relationship. So walk us through this one, Fisher. Yeah, so on this one, things are getting serious and usually there is an element of you acknowledging maybe, maybe no, but usually acknowledging there’s now start to be an impact, if not on your emotions, at least on your ability to trust this individual.

So we again want some signals that this is a more serious conversation. So very, say again, perfect trainer, amazing. Third week, they’re late again. You’ve already checked in so far as they’ve told you. There’s nothing going on personally. This is a big deal. And this is understandably starting to feel a little frustrating for you.

So now maybe they get a formal email [00:20:00] asking you to meet you in your office. About X and X time, the tone is going to feel a little bit more formal. And now when they come in, maybe it is, we’ll come in, we’ll sit down, we’ll shut the door you’re intentionally behind a desk. And then maybe now we’re going to have them actually sign some paperwork and have some written record of your violating standards.

And again, making it clear what happens next. Now, again, this depends on the context of their performance, their relationship. Is this the. Have they ever had this kind of issue before, but it wouldn’t be uncommon at this point to be starting about the end of someone’s tenure. Right. And again, based on the way your gym is set up, maybe the third one is strikeout, right?

Maybe the second conversation felt a little heavier because you’re letting the person know, look, we have this role. You can be late once a year and I won’t care twice a year. This is a serious deal. If you’re a third time late, everyone knows our standards. I have to let you go, which is horrible and annoying.

And I think to speak to, I think what in practice becomes the real issue in a lot of gyms are. At a certain point, [00:21:00] if you’re actually not willing to terminate the person and end the relationship, and this is, this is hard. This is like the real talk, like where this gets tough, where I get what that means for you and for your family and your hours.

They don’t really have any reason to change, right? If they don’t really care. And clearly it having an emotional impact on you is not enough of a hit for them to change their behaviors. And again, we don’t know exactly is maybe this person’s very contrite. Maybe they really feel badly and it’s obvious.

And this is just like a one time mess thing. And they’re pleading, I’ll never do this again. But at a certain point, unless you’re really willing to have meaningful consequences, you’re going to run, it’s going to be groundhog’s day, right? You’re going to run into the limits of what you’re willing to do.

And I don’t say this flippantly. I realized for many of you in small gyms with a couple of staff, how big of a deal it is to be willing to let someone go. And at the same time, I know that’s how you. Hold standards. And I’ll just speak to MFFs history. I think for many years, we didn’t quite do that to the extent that a lot of our team wanted us to do it.

Of course, it’s always easier when you’re out the [00:22:00] person, let anyone go. And then it was traumatizing for a lot of people because we started doing it. People like. We’re very upset about that because anytime that’s a whole other conversation when you let someone go, what is the triage you need to immediately do with everybody else on the team because now they’re thinking about their own professional mortality.

But ultimately, this conversation, while it’s not necessarily saying we’re on the verge of being fired, that’s where you’re moving to. And again, think through this. If we’re filming these Three different discreet encounters. Is it obvious with the sound off just by the environment, your body language, your face?

Is it very clear to anybody watching the outside? These are three distinct conversations that have escalated in a very serious way. Yeah. I think it’s a great walkthrough for sure. I think the thing that I’ll add, just a tiny thing is that I think at this third level Cost that this behavior is having to your relationship for some of you requires a kind of a level of vulnerability that you may not be used to displaying in these [00:23:00] conversations.

Yeah. Right. Because it’s something I think that comes a little easier to you Fisher than maybe it has to me historically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that it’s really essential for you to be able to say, listen, I am rooting for you. I think you could be great at this job. Yeah. Yeah. And. Your lateness of the last three weeks has really made me question whether I believe you’re still the right fit for this job.

And it makes me really sad because I want to keep you here and I can’t if you can’t uphold the standards that we’ve set as a team. And sharing the fact that you are sad and you are frustrated and you’re losing trust or you’re losing faith in their ability is a hard thing to have to say to someone.

But I think it gets at the fact that we’re in the third level of this conversation, right? There has to be some weight to it. And part of the consequence is that it’s damaged how I feel about us working together. And I think that’s an important thing to be able to say. And I think it brings gravity to this conversation in a way that hopefully turns their behavior around.

You don’t have to move to firing. But I think if you do, I think there’s a whole nother conversation we have about performance improvement plans [00:24:00] and how to do that. But I think you’ve got to be able to have a little bit of vulnerability here and share how you really feel about what’s been happening.

Yes. Yeah. And because of course there’s ways to do this that are professional. I think the cliche, certainly in like corporate land, maybe not in gems, is that the issue is people are just like, the boss is just telling people off and in practice, that’s not what happens. Everybody’s like a wuss. No one’s actually sharing how upset they are in a way that’s vulnerable and direct.

A lot of people, myself included, a lot of people, it’s very, it’s harder for me to acknowledge I felt very angry. Angry is how I felt. Because growing up, anger was highly correlated with some really destructive and harmful things. Ultimately, being empathetic is fantastic, but it really can get you in trouble if it’s so hard for you emotionally to bear someone else being in pain that you could say in some ways you were maybe not the direct cause, but you’re certainly an agent of because you said things and held them accountable in a way that resulted in them feeling bad.

And obviously, of course, they’re in charge for their own experience. [00:25:00] There are ways of doing this ideally without robbing the person of dignity and you’re certainly not being harmful intentionally. But If you do this right, the person should have an emotional hit. They shouldn’t feel good. Again, I’m not saying you’re trying to inflict harm and frankly, if they don’t care, now you’ve got trouble in river city, right?

If you have this kind of conversation, they’re just like, okay, well, okay. No, that’s probably not a good sign either. And the other thing that will happen sometimes is. Again, particularly with the Juju Bougie ones, they’re a little squishier is they might get defensive and come at you. Right? So if you don’t like people being angry at you, unfortunately you made a mistake because you’ve opened up a gym and sometimes people are going to be upset with you because you’re not going to please all the people all the time.

So yeah, I know it’s not necessarily just signed up for gym owner, but that’s the job you got now. Yeah, I think it’s a really important point, which is that if you have people in this third level of the conversation who don’t care that you feel differently about them, that’s a problem. And you have people on the other end who care so much about what you think, they might be [00:26:00] defensive or really emotional and upset about the conversation.

Yeah. And listen, you’re, if you’re working with humans, Any of those things and more is possible. And the whole point of this model is to give you just some scaffolding as a manager to figure out how do I continue to evolve people’s behavior in a way that is effective, that I can follow consistently with every person, every time.

And this is why models exist is to give you a little bit of a shortcut as imperfect as it is to say, okay, I’m going to talk about the content first that I’m going to talk about the pattern that I’m gonna talk about the relationship. As long as you’re evolving. The conversations in those ways, you’re less likely to have the same results over and over again.

Yes. Um, and you’ll titrate this with your relationship with, because there are people, yeah, I think that’s a very good point. There’s some people just, you just don’t need a lot of spin on the ball, right? If you hit them too hard, they’re, if they don’t get defensive, they’re get so crushed. And admittedly, honestly, I’m a little bit one of those people, like I want to do such a good job.

Like I, the good news is it’s not that hard because You know, tell me the thing [00:27:00] and I’m going to get it. You don’t have to worry about me being like, okay, whatever. And there are people that are seemingly oblivious and those are people I fire and I don’t work with because I don’t like people that need me to yell at them to understand what I need done.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a special kind of need and some people have it. Yeah. And some people are also happy to give it to you. And I’m not. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Not my vibe. I think we can talk about this all day. As, as you listeners might be able to tell. Fisher and I have a little bit of experience with these conversations and could share stories all day long.

But. We’re going to wrap it up there. I think we’ve done a good job of laying out the CPR processes and giving you all a sense of how to walk through it. So let’s end there. Thanks for a great conversation. Fisher listeners. If you want to get on that merge train with forever fierce, go click the link in the show notes and go check them out.

Let them know we sent you and I’ll see you on the next one. Have a, have a great day. Bye.