Fisher Interviews Keeler!

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Speaker: [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3, 4. [00:00:05] Welcome to The Business for Unicorns podcast, where we help gym and [00:00:10] studio owners create a business and a life they love. I’m your host, Michael Keeler. [00:00:15] Join me and the business unicorns team each week for actionable advice, expert [00:00:20] insights, and the inside scoop on what it really takes to level up your gym.

Get ready to [00:00:25] unlock your potential and become a real unicorn in the fitness industry.[00:00:30] [00:00:35]

Yeah. Hello, fitness business nerds. What’s up? Welcome to [00:00:40] another episode of the Business Unicorns podcast. Today I am back with Mark Fisher. Mark [00:00:45] Fisher, how’s your day going?

Speaker 2: I am doing great. Doing very good. Excited to get these batch of New year, [00:00:50] new US newbie for you. New Year Vibe podcast going still, this will still be new-ish year when [00:00:55] this one goes live.

Speaker: Yeah, this is going live early January, so again, happy New Year. Y’all. [00:01:00] Hope your 2026 is off to a great start. And to kick off the new year, we thought we would do some [00:01:05] kind of foundational podcasts. And what I mean by that is just come back to the basics, reintroducing [00:01:10] ourselves to the world out there.

And so today I’m gonna hand over the reins to Mr. Mark [00:01:15] Fisher. Yeah. And he’s. Interview me and I only had a glance of these questions 30 seconds [00:01:20] ago, so it’s a very unprepared, spontaneous interview. Boy, there’s a lot of gotcha questions. [00:01:25] Yeah. So many gotcha questions make you say, I have so much egg on my face after this.

Cancel, cancel you. Yeah, [00:01:30] please. Yeah, I’m looking forward to it. Cancel me please. I could use a occasion, but [00:01:35] yeah, so this is our way of saying, just reintroducing ourselves to you, dear listeners, and hoping [00:01:40] that you. Spread this podcast far and wide. In 2026, we can meet even more amazing humans [00:01:45] and hopefully whatever our fisher’s gonna ask me about resonates with you.

Yeah, so take [00:01:50] it away, Fisher. All right.

Speaker 2: I think I should first acknowledge by saying this is not gonna be as like, tell us how you got into fitness. [00:01:55] Only in part because that’s been covered elsewhere. So perhaps her, rose Marie, if she’s feeling magnanimous, can drop a [00:02:00] link to whenever, I’m sure we did that eons and eons ago, but mean that we always have new people [00:02:05] coming into our universe.

We wanna take an opportunity to. So pull back the curtain, take a peek at [00:02:10] the real Michael Keeler, the real unsavory character, and not his [00:02:15] public self. But, so we’re gonna, we’re gonna get in deep here. Yeah. The first question is one of my favorite ones I always ask [00:02:20] incidentally, this is actually one of my favorite interview questions.

Because I’m looking for people that are changing their minds. [00:02:25] So this first question is, tell me something you’ve changed your mind about in the recent [00:02:30] past. It’s pretty broad, but

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, it was a good one. I’m having me thinking for a second. ’cause I feel like [00:02:35] I’m changing my mind all the time. I think we have that in common.

We’re like, we’re learners, we’re lifelong [00:02:40] learners. And at the time of recording this, I’m into my final stages of finishing my [00:02:45] PhD and so I’ve been like, really? Thinking and reading and writing a lot [00:02:50] about leadership and management for the last few years. And one of the things I think has really [00:02:55] solidified in my thinking recently, so this is something that I definitely have changed my mind about, is I think [00:03:00] for most of my life I really thought that kind of leaders were the most important people in [00:03:05] organizations.

And I would give like some, some nods to, like, everyone’s important, everyone [00:03:10] has a role to play. But if you, if I really was being honest, I was like. But the leader is like [00:03:15] the most important person in an organization, and I’ve really changed my mind about that. [00:03:20] And I really think the most important people in the organization are actually managers.

I think that’s [00:03:25] actually the people in the middle who keep their trains running on time, and there’s a lot of research to support the [00:03:30] fact that they just have an outsize impact on everything, on everyone, on culture, on [00:03:35] climate, on results, on, you name it, sense. The managers in the middle are just, [00:03:40] and listen, I don’t need to say one’s more important.

The other, they, everyone truly does of have a role to [00:03:45] play in a well-functioning organization. But in terms of just impact and influence, it’s [00:03:50] the managers, the middle. Yeah. That really make it all happen or not. Yep. And [00:03:55] so anyway, I could keep talking about that, but that would be a whole podcast. Yeah.

I’ll shut up and that makes sense. Answer the question

Speaker 2: mean, just to pull [00:04:00] that one a little bit. I think if we were to steal, man, the argument that the leader, no support and you know, and you might have [00:04:05] some more color you can use to Yeah. Define this from your timing. The [00:04:10] academy, Dr. Wizard Keeler. But typically I, my, I’m taking this to mean that the leader [00:04:15] is like the forward thinking.

People at the top of the organization that are responsible [00:04:20] for vision and maybe some inspiration and goal setting, et cetera. [00:04:25] And the managers are the ones that are, could typically be more in the middle of the organization that are quote unquote [00:04:30] underneath or at least reporting to the leader. And they’re responsible for making sure the trains are running on time, the [00:04:35] work is getting done, that the things on the daily weekly basis are happening that are gonna lead up to the goals that the leaders have [00:04:40] set forth for the department or the organization.

And if that is an accurate definition, I [00:04:45] suppose the steelman you could say is like. The, what did the performance of the managers be [00:04:50] partly determined by how well the leaders are leading slash managing the mid-level [00:04:55] managers.

Speaker: It depends. So there, there’s a lot of shorthand we’re using here, [00:05:00] right?

Leaders, managers, et cetera. So I think thinking of just a traditional hierarchical [00:05:05] organization, mm-hmm. I think what a lot of the research says is that the managers. Could [00:05:10] absolutely run the business without the leaders and the leaders could not do it without the men. Yeah, that makes sense. [00:05:15] And so we just want overall impact and influence.

And I’m focused, my research has been focused on mental [00:05:20] health. When you think about all the ways that people at the top, at the executive level make [00:05:25] policy decisions about kind of mental health practices, everything from time off, vacation [00:05:30] days to. Et cetera, et cetera. All the decisions they make about people’s mental health.[00:05:35]

So much of the research is pretty clear about those policy decisions and things they make don’t mean [00:05:40] shit if the people in the organization managing every day don’t [00:05:45] normalize those policies. Don’t reinforce those policies, don’t create norms around those [00:05:50] policies. It just doesn’t mean shit. They, so they just leaders leadership [00:05:55] generally, and this is.

Big generalization is toothless without the people who [00:06:00] operationalize those ideas or that vision every day. And so just something about just like honoring [00:06:05] those mid-level managers who just make everything sticky and make everything [00:06:10] work. It’s just

Speaker 2: they’re so, certainly my bias is inclined strongly to believe [00:06:15] that probably partly because my historical experience, unlike a lot of people listening, I have been lucky that between [00:06:20] MFF bi unicorns, even my biz now, it’s a very small gym, New Jersey.[00:06:25]

I have always relied on getting work done through. Other [00:06:30] people and have always felt a little bit deeply responsible for the wellbeing of [00:06:35] those people. Deeply a aware of how vulnerable I am if those people are [00:06:40] not bought into me or our relationship or where I’m trying to send the [00:06:45] organization. So that strikes me as very true, I think for gym owners listening to this, trying to contextualize what that [00:06:50] means.

What’s interesting is arguably your most gym owners, businesses, even very successful [00:06:55] ones in the Unicorn Society. Still pretty operationally involved. And they’re wearing both those hats. Yes. They’re wearing [00:07:00] both. Like the leader vision hat. Yes. But they’re also having to do the operational hat. I think where this [00:07:05] become is very important.

This is maybe just like one more quarter in the piggy bank of, it’s [00:07:10] hard to be a gm. It’s hard to be a num, a hand of the king. Yeah. It’s a very hard [00:07:15] role. And yeah, be too. Well take care of those people. Great. 100%. Alright, the next [00:07:20] question is most in, this is actually another I’m asking all the interview questions.

Maybe I’ll [00:07:25] consider hiring you to be a trainer. Taylor, what is the most impactful educational experience you’ve [00:07:30] ever had? And I always make the point when I ask this, and I’m giving this away, but I presume no candidate will [00:07:35] listen to this. And if you do, you deserve to make cheat and feed you the answer.

I always make it clear, it can be [00:07:40] formal or informal, but not like the school of hard knocks. And I’m always disappointed because [00:07:45] nobody seems to have any actual educational experience and it is always usually a bullshit answer. [00:07:50] And always like some college class they can barely remember, but they’re just like pulling from the sands.

[00:07:55] They’re remember to have something semi lucid to say. But at any rate, I know education is a [00:08:00] passion that we share and something it’s important to you. So yeah. What would, if you had to pick, what would be the most important educational [00:08:05] experience of your life and maybe share a little bit about why.

Speaker: Yeah, I’ll tell you what I was gonna say, but [00:08:10] then I don’t know if this is what you want.

Speaker 2: Say what I want so I.[00:08:15]

Speaker: When you first asked the [00:08:20] question, the thing that I went to is like, what did I learn the most from what experience I learned the most from in my [00:08:25] life? And I’ve had great education, like I’ve had, I’ve loved school. It’s why I’ve been a lifelong [00:08:30] student at this point. Those are not the the experiences that pop into mind first.

The thing that popped into my mind [00:08:35] first, the experience I had that I think just generally as an experience taught me the most. Was [00:08:40] running Mark Fisher Fitness. Mm-hmm. That, that 13 year experience was like the most [00:08:45] educational thing I’ve ever done. Not only from the formal learning we did during that time of the books we [00:08:50] read Uhhuh and the Continu education I did, and I became a coach.

Yeah. Because of Mark Fisher Fitness and did that [00:08:55] certification and, but just the whole experie the hands-on experience of building a thing, [00:09:00] building the plane in the air most of the time mm-hmm. Of navigating it with being a business partner for the first [00:09:05] time. Making all those key decisions. I learn so much every day for 13 years.

If I had to [00:09:10] pick one kind of. Traditional educational thing. From that experience, it would [00:09:15] be my coaching certification. Sure. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Like that coaching certification, which was only two years [00:09:20] old. Absolutely. Two years of learning, like really changed the trajectory of my, yeah, my life and how I [00:09:25] think about communication, how I think about management and leadership, how I think about communication as a [00:09:30] human.

The skills I learned, not only. Taught many people in the world, but I still use every [00:09:35] day it, it opened up and gave me access to a whole nother version of myself to [00:09:40] learn that I can listen. And respond in new [00:09:45] ways that I actually have control of how I listen and how I respond. And there’s [00:09:50] just not one way to do those things.

Yes. Was brand new information to me in 2012. Yep. [00:09:55] When I did that. And so I think if I had to pick one from the whole MFF experience, it was [00:10:00] probably that education experience of becoming a coach that. That [00:10:05] altered the most for me.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that, and it’s interesting too, because that also actually wound up being [00:10:10] so foundational to Mark Fisher fitness and bi horns.

It’s easy, frankly, [00:10:15] even for me, I think to take for granted how foundational that came to everything. You would just come back and you would just [00:10:20] teach us all the things you were learning and we were always role playing and drilling. And we had a team, certainly that Brian, [00:10:25] Patrick Murphy also went on to.

To get the same certification. People were just such a hunger for that [00:10:30] sort of learning. And we are a little bit ahead a lot of the fitness industry. I think like people [00:10:35] began to understand throughout the 2000 tens through Rise of what I think of as like our sister organizations like [00:10:40] Precision Nutrition and Girls Gone Strong.

Yep. Where people like really took the behavior change thing [00:10:45] seriously. May maybe not everywhere but in a lot of circles. And the thing that’s striking me, maybe we should make a note and add to, [00:10:50] uh, one of our issue opportunity list is certainly the coaching conversation course. People still [00:10:55] talk about it, that that was seemed to be such a, the course that you taught seemed to be so foundational for a lot of those [00:11:00] individuals.

The interesting, the business conversation we’ve always had is like the sort of sad. [00:11:05] Acknowledgement that, yeah, I don’t know if there’s actually enough interest in this or us to really do this as we’re talking about this [00:11:10] in real time, it’s striking me that maybe our audience is now large enough and frankly the people that follow [00:11:15] us are the type of people may be hungry for this, that we’d have to figure out what the service mechanism is, but.[00:11:20]

Probably worth us. It’s of those three, revisiting that idea. ’cause people, 100% go nuts, nuts. Other course. It’s one of those

Speaker: things, [00:11:25] it’s, it’s a communication skillset that everyone that I know in the world would benefit from and [00:11:30] once they go through it, are so grateful and often very transformed for having [00:11:35] done it Uhhuh.

And it’s so hard to sell so hard. It’s so hard to [00:11:40] explain the value because it sounds so self helpy. It sounds so wooey. And even [00:11:45] when you can tie it to real. Tangible results. Yeah. For example, coaching skills are [00:11:50] so much, has so much overlap with sales skills, right? Coaching skills have so much [00:11:55] overlap with trainer skills in terms of navigating behavioral change with your clients has [00:12:00] so much overlap with managerial and leadership skills, right?

Communication skills. [00:12:05] Coaching skills are just like the foundation of a lot of what we do in this industry and it, but [00:12:10] it’s still hard to explain. It’s hard to sell, but, but I think once people go through it, they realize that how [00:12:15] transformative it can be. I am. And so yeah, maybe we do circle back to it at some point, but it certainly changed things for [00:12:20] us even to this day.

I, I have a husband who knows his coaching skills because he worked at Mark Fisher [00:12:25] Fitness. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s

Speaker 2: amazing how broadly applicable as well at, anyway, I’ve added in here. I’ll say [00:12:30] listeners, if you’re adamant about this because. My take isn’t even, there’s not no [00:12:35] interest. It’s more just, is there enough actually scale, is there enough people that are interested?

And [00:12:40] also there’s not like an, you can’t do it in a bullshit way. Like it requires like some like [00:12:45] actual, like real time application or really do it the way we would want. So really [00:12:50] need to be face to face. I dunno. I got some, usually I got some ideas noodling here. But yeah, this could be a thing for, [00:12:55] I dunno, I think.

Uh, frankly at this point, and thank you all for being the part of this. We’ve, the audience has really grown [00:13:00] the past couple years. Yeah. And likely, if you like the cut of our jib, you probably, you like coaching skills. So anyway, [00:13:05] I’m writing it down. Yeah. You here first. Maybe we’ll do it. Definitely. Maybe.

Okay. Next [00:13:10] question is, tell me about the hardest experience you’ve had in your career. What did it teach [00:13:15] you and how did you grow from it? So this is interesting. It’s almost like another growth question, but specifically about a time in your career that was like [00:13:20] hard and something you learned from it.

Speaker: Yeah, some of you might have heard me talk about [00:13:25] parts of this experience before, and I’m sure I could take up the whole podcast sharing bits and pieces and stories, but [00:13:30] my time working at the Four Seasons specifically in Hawaii was really [00:13:35] hard. And so for those of you who don’t know podcast listeners, I’ve spent like maybe [00:13:40] six and six, seven years working for the Four Seasons hotels and resorts traveling around.

My job was mainly [00:13:45] running the concierge department. And I’ll spare the story how I got into that. It seems like a strange [00:13:50] job to fall into, but I did and did it for a while and I worked at a [00:13:55] property, two properties in Hawaii. And the reason that was hard [00:14:00] was one, the job itself was hard, right? Hotels never closed.

They’re open all the time. We worked 24 7 [00:14:05] at that property was the first time I was a department head, so I was in charge of an entire department and was [00:14:10] not that old. I was one of the youngest, I was the youngest department head at that property for sure. And so I was [00:14:15] green. But the thing that made it the hardest was not any of those things.

It [00:14:20] was the kind of cultural environment of Hawaii. The fact that I was a white man [00:14:25] who came in from the mainland, what they call the mainland US, and took a really great [00:14:30] well-paying job that should have gone to someone local was a point of tension from day one. I could feel the [00:14:35] palpable tension. I was the, my boyfriend at the time, and I were the first openly gay [00:14:40] couple to live on that island where we lived.

It was tiny island called Lanai. It was right near Maui. [00:14:45] That was a tension I felt from day one. I also ran my [00:14:50] whole concierge team at both properties. Were all also all women. And so I ran a [00:14:55] team of a hundred percent women that over my time there, we did have a man or two that popped up, [00:15:00] but most of the time I was there it was all women being managed by a man.

And there [00:15:05] were all these kind of, these kind of cultural identity dynamics at play that [00:15:10] I was so unprepared for. I was so unprepared to navigate [00:15:15] being, being looked at. I would even say not, I don’t use the word hated, [00:15:20] just questioned from day one. It wasn’t a, every job I had up until that point, [00:15:25] my first few weeks at work just felt like a big warm hug for the most part, right?

Even though it was [00:15:30] hard, right? You used welcomed onto a team, you usually feel welcomed onto a team. I did not [00:15:35] feel welcomed onto this team, and so I spent my time there really earning it. Like [00:15:40] one person at a time trying to win them over, prove them at least of my good intentions, even if [00:15:45] they were never gonna be pleased with me being a gay white man.

Sure. Living on their island and taking a job. [00:15:50] At the very least they could learn that like, I’m a good person and even though you [00:15:55] don’t agree with me being here, at least know that I’m gonna do a good job and I’m gonna care about [00:16:00] you. And I made this a great place for you to work as much as I can. And so I spent a lot of time just playing [00:16:05] the interpersonal games of, of really.

Making friends [00:16:10] because it’s personal there. Yeah. It’s a small little island. At the time, there’s maybe only 3000 people who lived on the island, [00:16:15] and so everyone knew everyone. And so it wasn’t just put on your professional face. [00:16:20] Yep. And, uh, achieve certain business objectives. You really had to make it personal and know everyone [00:16:25] at a personal level and give a shit about them.

And I was not ready for that. I wound up doing well [00:16:30] and I’m proud of the kind of work I did there and the relationships I built there, but that was one of the hardest things I’d [00:16:35] ever done professionally.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a, I often think about the, your learning and [00:16:40] the, that, the way that story was so helpful for me about Oh yeah, you have to like, ask people [00:16:45] about their day a little bit.

Sometimes just get ready in the work thing, it doesn’t work, so right.

Speaker: No. Yeah, I [00:16:50] went in with a total East Coast mentality of I’m gonna go in, I’m gonna professionalize this group and make them [00:16:55] achieve more than ever be before. They’ll be so efficient. I’m gonna change all the processes and people I had to learn [00:17:00] very slowly, like slow down.

Do you know their kids’ names yet? Do you know how long they [00:17:05] lived on this island? And how many generations have lived here? Do you know about their hobbies? Do you ask them how their [00:17:10] weekend was? And I was like. Why would I do any of that? Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: I’m [00:17:15] not their friend. I’m their boss. Like, that was the energy.

I came in with it and I learned, I was humbled very quickly [00:17:20] by a mentor I had there who was like, oh no, Michael. That’s not how it goes here. Yeah. [00:17:25] And that, that, those lessons have served me well because I, I was not the right mentality for really, [00:17:30] really Sure. Sure. But that’s, that was the kind of like hard driving east coast [00:17:35] mentality I, I came with.

Yeah. And I had to unlearn it.

Speaker 2: Yes. Alright. We’re almost into some like [00:17:40] lightning roundy ones. So before we get into kind of some of the fun ones here, we have one more [00:17:45] beefier, some lightning rounds. And I have one final question for you, but this next one’s a little beefier is, I think this is [00:17:50] too abstract.

What role do you see community playing for you at this point in your life? So we [00:17:55] talk obviously a lot about community market for, for fitness. Talk a lot about the role community play in gyms. Talk about even [00:18:00] bi unicorns is a community. I think at its best we aspires to be. I’m just curious to understand [00:18:05] for you personally, and you can answer that in any way that feels correct to you, what role do you see community playing [00:18:10] in your life?

Speaker: Yeah, it’s a really interesting question ’cause I’ve been having more and more [00:18:15] conversations with my husband. About the friendships that [00:18:20] we cultivate at this point in my life. And the ones where, or I’ll say, I [00:18:25] am choosing to just let go of. Mm-hmm. And I’m not the place in my life where I’m like, I don’t need any more [00:18:30] friends.

I got enough friends. Yeah. That’s not, that’s what Almo saying. I think what what’s happened for me is I’ve gotten [00:18:35] older, is that I think I’m just more thoughtful about the kind of. Community. I [00:18:40] curate for them, for myself, where I actually am someone who wants less [00:18:45] people in my life that are just closer. I wanna spend more time with less [00:18:50] people.

Mm-hmm. Whereas my husband’s very different. And you know, this Andrew’s social butterfly. Yeah. He’s very [00:18:55] happy to have hundreds of acquaintances that he sees for one brunch. One brunch every two [00:19:00] years. Yes. And he loves maintaining those like long distance. Yeah. Yeah. Think, and [00:19:05] I am, I’ve learned that I’m so different.

For me, the role that community [00:19:10] plays is the, I do think we are a reflection of the people we spend the most time with in many ways [00:19:15] being such social creatures, and I’ve learned that there. It’s okay to say no to the [00:19:20] people who really don’t make me feel better about myself or my time [00:19:25] spent. And that’s hard.

Yeah, it’s hard, especially living in a place like New York, right, where you have a [00:19:30] lot of social circles, a lot of different intersecting. Yeah. So social circles and [00:19:35] you meet a lot of people and not all of them are people that you’re stoked to go hang out with again. And I [00:19:40] would suck it up. For much of my life and just hang out with the people, even if I didn’t think they were the nicest or [00:19:45] the most fun or the most, and I think I just stopped doing that.

And I’m really cool with having a [00:19:50] smaller, tighter, more thoughtful group of people that when I do hang out with them, I just know [00:19:55] it’s going to be worth it. Yes. Not always like a happy dolly laughy time, but all kinds of [00:20:00] experiences. Yes. We can have really deep and meaningfuls, we can have creative time, we can explore, we can, and yeah, so for [00:20:05] me, I think I, I still do very much think of the community as different, different shades of my own.

[00:20:10] Personality. Yes. And my own interests, and I’ve just gotten more and more discerning about who I [00:20:15] want to be in that circle. Yeah. I, I think that’s, I don’t, I dunno if that answered your question. Yeah, no, I think that is, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: It’s, what I’m [00:20:20] hearing is you’re in a period where you’ve become very intentional to the point of being willing to make some hard [00:20:25] decisions to trim your limited time for who you want to be around because Yeah.

The other thing you said there, I think is like [00:20:30] we’re double clicking on, is that to some extent we are [00:20:35] by curating, I think our community and our friend group we’re curating. Ourselves. Right. And I think we’re all [00:20:40] drawn to people that bring out a version of ourselves we like in different. [00:20:45] People might bring out different sort of shades and slivers, and in many ways, I think one might say your best friends are the [00:20:50] people that bring forth your favorite version of yourself.

And yeah, it’s something I think [00:20:55] important in our increasingly digitalized age, of which I have decided I’m [00:21:00] gonna do everything I fight outta. Yeah, yeah. For, for myself. Hundred, I left.

Speaker: [00:21:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2: No, it’s true. All right. A couple quickies here. A couple quickies here before we get to one final beef. Your question.

Okay. If you [00:21:10] could do another job in an unrelated industry, what would it be? I. [00:21:15]

Speaker: I would be a lighting designer for concerts. Oh, fun. Yeah. I’ve [00:21:20] always loved lighting design and I think the technology has reached such a crazy place. I’m [00:21:25] obsessed with like lighting design for concerts. Yeah,

Speaker 2: just,

Speaker: it would be such a fun job.

It’s

Speaker 2: gotten truly, truly out of [00:21:30] hand, which I experienced outrageous, mostly at Bernie Mad, which is a very unusual place to see it. Okay. Favorite non-work [00:21:35] hobby or pastime? What do you like besides work?

Speaker: Cooking food. I’m such a foodie. [00:21:40] It’s, I, you look at my, all my algorithms on Instagram. Yes. And on YouTube, it’s, it’s [00:21:45] food.

It’s food or drag queens or it’s, yeah. So I’m such a food. I’m always trying to, I’m [00:21:50] always buying a cookbook and people always ask, what’s your favorite thing to make? Which everything to make is something [00:21:55] new. I’m not someone who goes back to my same arsenal. I’m like, oh, give me something new I’ve never [00:22:00] made before.

I just got a reset. I just started, got a friend, give me a Indian cook. And I just never [00:22:05] really explored Indian food much. It’s a whole new world. Yeah. It’s like learning a new language. Yeah. And so anyway, I [00:22:10] love

Speaker 2: cooking. Love it, love it. I think this next one here, maybe not favorite food to cook, but favorite food to eat is their [00:22:15] favorite food item that you’re like, ah, that’s my go-to.

Yeah.

Speaker: My mother used to say that if [00:22:20] I as a child had a choice between. Air breathing and ice [00:22:25] cream. I would choose ice cream and it’s just, it’s always been the case. Like even when I was ice cream, it’s [00:22:30] just my favorite food no matter what. Yeah, no

Speaker 2: matter what time

Speaker: of year.

Speaker 2: It’s classic.

Speaker: What’s not

Speaker 2: the

Speaker: love

Speaker 2: [00:22:35] favorite book?

Speaker: Oh gosh, [00:22:40] there’s so many. How do you answer that? I’m gonna give like a knot. Businessy book [00:22:45] or academic book option, which my favorite book of the last few years I got this book just a few years ago, [00:22:50] is I have this giant coffee table book of all of Dolly Parton’s song books, [00:22:55] and it brings me such joy. I’m such a huge Dolly Parton fan [00:23:00] and like most Jim Parton coaches, yeah.

Yes. It’s, that’s only part in what she’s [00:23:05] most proud of in her life. It’s her songwriting. Yeah. It’s her. She thinks her, her as a lyricist. Yeah. [00:23:10] Yeah. Is the most important thing she’s ever done. And just reading through her body of work, I [00:23:15] find so rewarding. Mm-hmm. And fills up the creative side of me in a way that not many other books.

[00:23:20] Have in the last decade or so. Yeah. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna give a shout out to Dolly Parton here for a big coffee table [00:23:25] book of lyrics.

Speaker 2: I’m gonna add

Speaker: one more

Speaker 2: here. Uh, first, next one is simple one. I think we should’ve known this [00:23:30] newly wet style. I think I would’ve known not all of these, but a lot of these you would’ve known a lot of things.

Yeah. Fa favorite drink. I know what you’re gonna say, but tell [00:23:35] them because they don’t know.

Speaker: Yeah. Tea i a tea drinker. I drank tea. Iced used hot all the time. Big tea. [00:23:40] Drink coffee at all. Just tea

Speaker 2: all day, every day. Okay, this next one is [00:23:45] who? It’s just a little beefier. And then, okay. Let’s do this one first.

Favorite travel destination? Favorite travel [00:23:50] destination. I think I know, but we’ll see.

Speaker: Favorite place I’ve ever been travel [00:23:55] wise.

Speaker 2: Or just a place you like to live. It’s not a place I wanna go. This is a place. Yeah.

Speaker: Okay. [00:24:00] The, I’ll say this, I think my favorite [00:24:05] country that I’ve ever been to that I think I would love to go back to more, and I really always enjoy is Thailand.

I’ve been to Thailand [00:24:10] twice. I just think it’s a blast, including with Mr. Fisher and I, it’s just a country that’s friendly people, [00:24:15] great food, so many things to explore. I, the fact I’ve only been twice makes me so sad because I would love to [00:24:20] go back

Speaker 2: more. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s great. It’s great. Great. We should go, we should do a retreat there.

Yeah. [00:24:25] 100%. Let’s go. Okay, two more. This next one, I just added this one here. This is an interesting one. Again, this is another one’s often [00:24:30] like an interview question, but. Who is your hero and why? If you had identify one person that [00:24:35] you really admire, oh geez. Who is your hero and why?

Speaker: It’s just like living or

Speaker 2: dead.

Living [00:24:40] or dead fresh. Doesn’t matter. Living your, it can be n hero to let you off the hook of having your ultimate hero. [00:24:45] Someone, yeah, you got to and a.

Speaker: Yeah, I’m gonna, I might give like a [00:24:50] very, a very sentimental answer, which is not typical for me, but I’m gonna give a very ential [00:24:55] answer, which is, which I’ve said many times in many cases where this question has gotten brought up in throughout my life, and this is still [00:25:00] true.

My mother has always been at the peak for me. Yeah. And I know that’s cliche as a little gay boy ’cause. Many of [00:25:05] us are just such mama’s boys, but my mom just led a life that is just so [00:25:10] admirable in so many ways. From her tenacity to her creativity, to her [00:25:15] resilience, to her unbounding love, to the reputation she had amongst friends and [00:25:20] family.

It just. It’s, and a woman who never really had much in her life. And my mom, for those of you who don’t [00:25:25] know, my mom passed when I was young, when I was in college and, and she never really had much, struggled to have [00:25:30] a career, never really made much money, was not handed much in life and just [00:25:35] made so much of it.

And one of those people you would never hear complaining, but was [00:25:40] always just doing her best to create a good time and do the best she could for her family and what’s not to [00:25:45] admire could go on forever, but yeah. Say badass. Say mom.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Love mom. [00:25:50] Yeah. Alright, so last one is we think as we move towards January, [00:25:55] something that we’ve started having some conversations with and we will more in the coming weeks.

Partly [00:26:00] at your Be Has, but it always time because there’s something else I’ve been thinking a lot about is we were like. What do we [00:26:05] stand for? Like what? What matters to us? Mm-hmm. Or even like UVP stuff. I guess that’s [00:26:10] probably true too, and certainly there’s probably some marketing benefit of being like, what does business Unicorn stand for?

But I [00:26:15] think really what we’re asking is what is our vision for the [00:26:20] best that the fitness industry gonna be? And so far as we have something, a platform where people pay [00:26:25] attention to us. Some formally as clients, and also a lot of, again, we’ve seen a just massive growth of [00:26:30] certainly our email list, but also on Instagram as well.

A lot of growth. So if you could make [00:26:35] one change in the fitness industry, what change would you make? Our last question here as we look forward to 2026. [00:26:40]

Speaker: Yeah. What change you stand for? 5 million, probably millions. Yeah, I’m gonna pick [00:26:45] one. I think if there’s one thing I could really inject in the industry that I would hope would make a [00:26:50] biggest difference, it would be that I wished the industry really centered more [00:26:55] knowledge about behavior change.

Mm-hmm. I feel like so often the, at least our [00:27:00] for version of the industry are, part of the industry focuses so much on trainers. Just being good at [00:27:05] programming and exercise science and like those things are important for sure. But [00:27:10] I would just, I would want to make there be an. If not equal, a [00:27:15] bigger weight on learning the science of behavior change.

Yeah. Just because at the end of the [00:27:20] day, all the best workouts in the world mean nothing. If you can’t break through [00:27:25] with someone and build a relationship that helps you get them results. And learning [00:27:30] what stops people from doing the thing they know is best for them. Knowing how to break [00:27:35] through both those plateaus.

Yeah. And those breakdowns and those breakthrough. Learning how to [00:27:40] navigate those. I can go on and on about all the skills that are under this umbrella. Mm-hmm. But generally [00:27:45] speaking, if we could interject in the industry and in the learning of all the trainers and everyone who runs [00:27:50] gyms, just more knowledge and practice on Yes.

Like the science of behavior [00:27:55] change, I think would be give everyone a much more holistic approach. Yeah. We get better results. [00:28:00] I think our services would be stickier. I think more people would wanna do it if they knew. Yeah. Yeah. That it was about [00:28:05] actually meeting the where they’re at and helping them along the way rather than.

Being what the industry has become, which is [00:28:10] still pretty intimidating to most people. Mm-hmm. Out of reach of most people, both financially, culturally. Mm-hmm. [00:28:15] So I think in a way it’s also my way of saying, of helping the industry maybe me get, become more [00:28:20] inclusive in all the ways it’s not inclusive is by really focusing on helping change people’s [00:28:25] behavior.

That’s not to say that’s not space for people who really are interested in fitness for performance [00:28:30] reasons. Yeah. Most of the world doesn’t need what we do for performance reasons. [00:28:35] Yes, that’s true. And so if we can really treat it like, like the, the [00:28:40] behavioral challenge that it is, I think we’d all be better off.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It’s tricky, right? ’cause it, it seems that [00:28:45] there is this, I think minimum bar of understanding, of technical coaching, of [00:28:50] movement, of biomechanics, of program design, of understanding, variables of load and all that [00:28:55] stuff. And and, and it’s hard because there are a lot of people, frankly, that are very interested in that.

And [00:29:00] frankly, to be like very blunt in New Jersey, there’s, they’re suck. They care about it, they’re passionate about it, they’re just [00:29:05] not that good. But at a certain point there is such a thing as over-indexing on that where [00:29:10] once you’re adequately good, unless you’re dealing with the rare air of elite athletes, you’re [00:29:15] good at, again, I’m not saying you should stop trying to get better.

I think arguably be kinda how I always have to get better because you’re just [00:29:20] gonna atrophy if you’re not. But at a certain point, the issue I’ve seen with a lot of trainers. [00:29:25] Not so gym owners just ’cause they have other things they have to think about. There’s like almost too much on their plate. But a lot of gym owners [00:29:30] and Dan John 1 0 1, they just get bored talking about pushups.

They just get bored talking and they get [00:29:35] bored with the basics and then they get, because if you don’t find something, I think to continue to grow and challenge [00:29:40] you. I think weird things happen. You begin to pervert and lose the threat of what the client [00:29:45] actually needs. And I think for most trainers, rather than getting into sort of this like painful [00:29:50] minutia of physical therapy and sports performance optimization, which isn’t relevant to the [00:29:55] needs of your mostly gen pop clients, for better or worse.

Mm-hmm. The world of behavior change [00:30:00] is one of which. The Hemingway quote, there are no. Masters and there are only apprentices, [00:30:05] right? The opportunities for continued growth and opportunities to express the development of [00:30:10] mastery like never ends because every person is different and we may have, perhaps we’ve sealed the [00:30:15] deal here, perhaps, perhaps, who knows?

We move quickly here, so maybe by the time this is live, we’ll have already integrated into the [00:30:20] marketing calendar and made the plan to roll out the uh, a more robust behavior change. That would be

Speaker: the coaching [00:30:25] certification that I would do would be around teaching enough behavior change skills. Yeah.

That it becomes this kind of certification [00:30:30] that everyone needs to really. Yeah. Be in helping professional. Yeah. Yes, it’s communication [00:30:35] skills, but it’s also a knowledge of the change process that people go through, how adults learn. Yep. [00:30:40] There’s lots of, there’s of stuff we know about that stuff. Yeah. A lot of that, the, that fitness industry is just [00:30:45] completely, I don’t say blind to, but not centered.

Yeah. I think that’s center. Yeah. And

Speaker 2: certainly again, we move in circles. [00:30:50] I think we are around probably nerds with more appetite for it, but, but yeah. I’m a, I’m intrigued, [00:30:55] so maybe this will be the. No, here’s your call to action and we always wanna give a call to action. Yeah. Let us know. Do you [00:31:00] wanna do that?

DM us if you’re like, oh, I like that idea. Even alumni that have done, again, I know a lot of people have done the [00:31:05] course over the years. Yeah, I got some ideas here. Alright, anything else you wanna share? Anything else you wanna share with our audience? [00:31:10]

Speaker: No, thanks. It, it’s been fun to be the one, be the one ask these days.

Indeed. Yeah. All [00:31:15] right. Yeah. Thanks for great questions. This was helpful. Dear listeners, let us know. [00:31:20] Leave some comments below and go rate our podcast if you haven’t at the start of 2026. Yes. We need your stars star. [00:31:25] Give us some stars and thanks again for being the host today, Fisher. We’ll do a flip [00:31:30] episode with you next Indeed.

So I’ll see you on the next one.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. [00:31:35] [00:31:40] [00:31:45] [00:31:50] Bye-bye.