What Makes a Great Coach? with Mark Fisher

Speaker: [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3, 4. Welcome to The Business for Unicorns podcast, where we help gym and studio owners create a business and a life they love. I’m your host, Michael Keeler. Join me and the business unicorns team each week for actionable advice, expert insights, and the inside scoop on what it really takes to level up your gym.

Get ready to unlock your potential and become a real unicorn in the fitness industry.[00:00:30]

Yeah.

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Hello, fitness business nerds. What’s up? Welcome to another episode of the Business [00:01:30] Unicorns podcast. I’m back with Mark Effing Fisher. How are you, sir?

Speaker 2: You know I’m feeling good ’cause we did a report of the podcast stats and listeners, we gotta thank you. We are really taking off here. So Lipson says, we’re Smash Lipson says, this podcast has really taken off.

So in all seriousness, thank you to everyone listening. If you have not, you know, given us a rating or review or follow, whatever else I’m supposed to tell you to do, call to action. Call to action. Call to action, and thank you for listening.

Speaker: Yeah, I love that. You know, thank you friends. I mean, we, I’ve been doing this podcast for a [00:02:00] long time now, recently, past 500 episodes, and, and damn, it’s been both.

Fun and rewarding and just a fun outlet for us to talk about the things that are on our mind and to connect with all of you. One of the things I want in this podcast moving forward, maybe this is my specific call to action, is we would love to hear from all of you more often if you listen to this podcast on a regular basis and you haven’t followed us on social media or said hi to us or shout us an email, please do when you have this podcast only gets better and better and we learn from all of you what you want from us and we’re really responsive.

We [00:02:30] actually will do the episode that you ask for. We will answer your questions and part of us. Part of my inspiration for doing this is making sure that I’m really making an impact to all of you out there. So by all means, leave us review, DM us, let us know what you want us to talk about, and we’ll keep making it if you like it.

Speaker 2: Yes. Keira’s desperate for your, your positive affirmation.

Speaker: Otherwise, not. I really need it, you know, know it’s, I, I will say it’s gotten better. We’ve heard more and more people reach out to us over the years, but for the first, you know. 200 episodes. It was like talking into a void, you know, like, it was like, is this thing on?

[00:03:00] Like, is anyone, you know? Until I, until I got used to the fact that that’s part of just what podcasting feels like. Yep. And then we, we’ve had more and more of you engage with us over the years, which always feels great. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Thank you. Say, say hi to Kara though. I’m kidding. Actually, I don’t think you, you don’t strike me.

I know you don’t need actually live.

Speaker: No, I don’t. It’s still nice. No, but I, I do like to know that like something’s landing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. I feel good about myself. For

Speaker 2: sure. For sure.

Speaker: I wanna know that, like are you feeling good about what we put out?

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, let’s talk about this today, which is brand new is top of mind because we’re actually hiring.

[00:03:30] People for the business Unicorns team, right now we’re actually hiring coaches for, to coach our unicorn signing members. You know, in part ’cause we’re growing and in part because we just always wanna make sure we have a good ratio of, of members and coaches. And we need coaches in different parts of the world now ’cause we’re growing, which is so much fun.

So, because I’ve been in interviewing land, mark and I, before this, before we started recording, we’re talking about like what we’re looking for in a coach. Mm-hmm. Specifically what makes someone a great coach and thought this would be a good podcast topic ’cause all of you. Should [00:04:00] know what to look for.

You’re looking for a good coach. You should, you know, and for all of you who want to do more coaching, either with your fitness clients or as a business owner, you wanna do more coaching, might be also be useful to hear a little bit about what we think makes a good coach. So, I don’t know, where do you wanna start this conversation?

Fisher?

Speaker 2: Well, you know, I, I mean, the first time I just want to sort of double click on the importance of this topic, is that like mm-hmm. You know, to my mind this is the master skill because it intersects with leadership, it intersects with coaching your clients. Obviously it’s [00:04:30] very relevant for what we do, and I, I think.

You know, it’s funny, people are always like, what makes you different? And the answer is always like, I don’t actually know. I don’t know enough about what’s under the hood of other people to do. We do, I’m, I’m gonna die on the hill and say, you’re definitely the only person with a master’s on route to doctorate and leadership that has the number of coaching C inserts that you have.

I think anybody that has spent time with you, done the coaching cert knows that as a unprecedented superpower and anybody that works with us. On the team does intensive coaching with you, understands the, the way that you look at [00:05:00] coaching under, you know, is getting regular feedback on their Zoom calls to help them be more effective at coaching.

So maybe we can start with, you know, another conversation we’ve had internally is the differences between coaching versus consulting. Right. I’ve always conceded, I, I think I actually, I think. Yeah, I’m curious ’cause again, part of what I wanted to explore was like both what gym owners should know, but also sort of your own path.

Sure. Because my sense is I’m capable of having good instincts if I were more patient and I’m like not so I tend to be like not patient. [00:05:30] You know, I just wanna get right to the answer. Yeah. And that is very useful in certain situations, right? If you’re, if we’re doing a mentorship day, yeah. If you’re doing an office hour, and I’m, I’m being hard on myself.

Like I can pull it out if I need to. But the way that I tend to think about, it’s like, you know, consulting is oftentimes about like. Answering questions and giving direction. Mentorship, oftentimes I tend to think about like sharing experiences, which certainly God knows we both can do. And coaching to my mind implies, not that the others aren’t [00:06:00] client centered, but to me I always have thought of this opportunity to, through a process of inquiry, help the person you’re coaching.

Discover what it is they care about, discover what’s getting in the way, question some of their assumptions, and shift some energy to move to some sort of action step that optimally the coach would then hold them accountable to actually taking. Right. So just like not an abstract conversation. And of course a lot of the magic there is knowing.

How much to dig in, how many open-ended questions to ask to [00:06:30] know when to push and like interrupt somebody. Totally. So I, I guess I’m just curious if you want to share your lens, let me know if and when there’s daylight and sort of define coaching as you see it for listeners.

Speaker: Yeah, I think it’s a really great question.

I mean, obviously this is a topic I think about and talked about a lot, but you know, the, the shortest answer I give on this topic is that coaching is obviously the most akin to teaching someone how to fish. For themselves.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.

Speaker: Right. That we’re not trying to give you the answers, we’re just trying to show you that you actually already have most of the answers inside of [00:07:00] you already.

Right, and that’s the capital C kind of coaching. It’s most akin to most people know, like behavioral interviewing, right? Yep. Which is like, I don’t have an agenda. I’m just here to help you better understand yourself and to make some decisions that you might make faster as a result of this conversation than you could on your own.

Yeah. As opposed to mentorship, which is like, let me tell you about all my years fishing and what’s worked for me.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Right, right. Which is valuable. Sometimes when we’re going to do something hard, we want someone who’s walked the path we’ve walked.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker: And they’ll show me where the landmines are and show me what [00:07:30] wins they’ve had.

And so I think if there’s anything that we also do at Business Unicorns is. We sprinkle a little mentorship on purpose by design. We even call, one of the things we do, a mentorship day, right, with some of our clients. So mentorship, I think goes hand in hand and, and you’re right, it’s often about sharing our experience.

And all of our coaches have amazing experience. We wouldn’t hire them if they didn’t. And so we want them to interject a little bit of the lessons they’ve learned and a little bit of their story into their coaching, but on purpose. And by design. And we try not to let the [00:08:00] mentorship take over the whole conversation.

We don’t want the whole conversation and the whole relationship to be like, just do what I did. Follow me. Right,

Speaker 2: right, right, right. ‘

Speaker: cause that’s not the right fit for

Speaker 2: everyone. Doesn’t Yeah. And we, we kind of,

Speaker: yeah,

Speaker 2: I think in some ways like had to learn that like very intensely because MFF, you know, and that’s been interesting for me, having this ALO experience, which is like.

It’s pretty actually quite typical in a lot of ways. It’s like, oh, this is what this is. Like, yeah. Where’s MFF? Not that we were ever bad, and I think we, again, we knew enough to know that like, oh, this is atypical. Yes, but you know, I can [00:08:30] remember, you know, us people needling us. Be like, oh, thank you you, you two for giving us your framework for what happens when the third level of management is in a Europe for two weeks, so they need to help the third, the fourth level of management.

It’s like, yes. Oh yeah, these are, it’s unusual. Thing we

did.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing your presentation on how to respond when you, when you had a, you know, a thousand people respond to your survey, how you sold all the data. Yeah. It’s like, well, that’s not helpful. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And then, and then consulting is specifically just like selling people phish.

Like, we’ve optimized, we are, we’re the experts in [00:09:00] phishing. We know how to do it. Don’t even bother. We’re gonna come in and do it for you, basically, you know? Yeah. And, you know, in consulting, do this thing, it’s really valuable when you want an outside expert to come in and diagnose and solve the problem, tell you what to do.

Some of the work for you in some cases. Yep. And that’s super valuable. We do the least of that. Wars and unicorn society in general.

Speaker 2: That’s prob, that’s probably true, I will say as not, but for better or for worse, yeah. Yeah, that tends to be the one that I, I lean on and notably, again, through no shade of my [00:09:30] own, there’s obviously value for that, but that’s also why I’m not available for the one-on-one.

Calls. I don’t think it’s, first of all, I don’t enjoy it as much, and second of all, I’m not as good as it ’cause I’m not interested in it. This isn’t to say that I wouldn’t work with you. Right. You still have access to the office hours and often, by the way, I get on the phone regularly with members, but it’s sort of a different SOPI guess that that I tend to use.

Speaker: Yeah. Well also say, I would also make sure that people aren’t hearing that coaches don’t teach. Because coaches do give information and teach, right? Coaches use what [00:10:00] we call just in time learning, right? Mm-hmm. We give the right information at the moment when the person needs it to take a next step, and they’d be missing information.

So we do focus on filling the knowledge gap. It’s not like we don’t have a ton of tools, resources, and courses that. Teach people and give them answers. It’s just, it’s just, we do it very strategically. Right. Whereas consultant, that’s right. Their whole thing is crafting answers to solutions you can’t

Speaker 2: solve

Speaker: on your own.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Like that’s why, like if I’m doing a mentorship day, I, I need to look at the whole thing and I’m gonna like look at everything and like, that’s just not. You [00:10:30] certainly don’t need that like every other week. You know, the other thing that I would highlight here for people listening is I want you to really like contextualize what does this mean for me?

’cause this isn’t really about, like, I think it’s valuable to understand our approach, but Sure. When you’re thinking about this as a gym owner, again you have like the leadership piece and the client behavior change PO piece. And to my mind those are gonna be like maybe a little bit different. We talk about here, I mean certainly with a, a genderless.

Coaching. That’s gonna be different in the leadership role. However, it does strike me. There’s a little bit of mapping to [00:11:00] the consulting that you might do, so to speak, with a frontline employee where you’re like, here’s the thing, do this thing. Not that you don’t wanna collaborate, but it’s gonna be a little bit more directive.

And then of course, if you’re developing a number two, now some, again, you have an agenda would be Disen agenda to pretend you don’t, but to teach your number two, how to fish, so to speak. You have to ask more questions. If you get in the habit of you’re always telling them what to do or they’re, you always are the savior, they come for answers.

You can develop an, first of all, an unhealthy pattern. And second of all, [00:11:30] that’s not getting you to the gym you wanna be running because you’re not developing an individual that can is learning how to think better and make decisions. And then of course, clients are a different animal, right? Because a client.

Yeah, I guess, yeah, you have an agenda you want them to do well, but ideally the client is, is pure, I guess, in that you don’t have like a business outcome. You’re not trying to get them to follow an SOP necessarily. I think that can be purely more curiosity led and purely on like a hundred percent what they wanna do because like, you know, yeah, I, I don’t know [00:12:00] that as the coach.

It with a client necessarily, you’re saying like you have to do it these macros, or at least, I guess that would probably our approach, maybe that’s not universally true.

Speaker: Well, I guess that, I think I agree with all that, and I’ll say that there is no such thing in my experience and, and maybe people out there would disagree with us who do this.

I don’t think there’s anything as like a pure approach in any one of these categories. That’s

Speaker 2: right. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, we’re making a manufactured Yeah. Model

Speaker: for sure. Yeah. Right. And by the

Speaker 2: way,

Speaker: lines on purpose, right,

Speaker 2: and, and we should say that. We’re kind of making this up. I, I, I don’t know if I’ve ever read in a book.

This is it. This is sort of like [00:12:30] our nomenclature. It tends to be how I think about it, but it’s worth acknowledging. There’s other people that might mean different things for coaching, consulting, and mentorship, but for, for our purposes,

Speaker: useful. Yeah. I, I’ll say useful. We’re pretty aligned with how research talks about this.

You know, we’re, we’re not, we’re not talking about anything wildly different. For sure. I think we have a different language we use. I don’t know if Yeah, if in the, in the research I hear a lot of phishing analogies, but, but still, I think we’re pretty spot on here. But, but, but the thing that I, I will say is that all of these are different ways that we all [00:13:00] can be with other people, right?

Yes. All of the skills we’re talking about are part of a vast toolbox, tool, belt, whatever analogy you want to use, and the whole point of learning these skills of how to be a coach and learn things like motivational interviewing or how to be a consultant and learn like systems thinking. Or how to be a mentor and learn how to turn your stories into lessons.

Right. These are all skills that all of us as leaders, as humans, as managers, should have access. We all have access to them. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: They belong in [00:13:30] all of our toolbox. And that the, the extent to which you use them with each person is dictates your success. Right. We wanna meet each person where they’re at, and use the tools that are appropriate for getting them from where they wanna go, to where they wanna be, any helping profession.

Mm-hmm. And I’d say, you know. Even in our very specific context of Unicorn Society members getting on a coaching call, yes, we’re using kind of capital CE coaching skills, but we absolutely have an agenda. Right. I mean, not a hundred percent Agendaless. We actually have a pre-made printed agenda for everything.

We all right, [00:14:00] right, right, right. That our client that we follow. But it’s informed by this overall sense of we lead with curiosity first. We provide tools and just-in-time learning when necessary, we will help them solve problems, even do some of the work with them when absolutely necessary. So we’ll wear all the hats.

It’s just a matter of we’re wearing them intentionally.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: As needed. Putting the client first. Yep. Right. And I think that’s, you know, at the heart of it, what makes a great coach is that they’re adaptive to each person they work with. Yeah. They have a vast toolbox they can use that’s, that they’ll use when [00:14:30] appropriate, when you need it.

And the same thing is true for, you know, a trainer on the floor. Right. Trainers don’t use every tool with every client every time, use every exercise of every client every time. Trying to find the right ones in the right order at the right time, to the results that client’s looking for. And it’s that kind of adaptive quality that I think makes.

Helping professionals good at what they do.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I, I think that’s, that strikes me as right. And I think, you know, again, for people listening to understand, okay, but how do I apply some of this? Well, one. [00:15:00] Drum we’ve been beating, right? Is particularly in any sort of group model, if there’s any way to build into the system, some kind of one-on-one coaching between a coach or you and the client to step out of like the workouts and ask like, how is this going?

Right? Like, how are, how, what kind of results are you getting compared to what you, you thought you were getting? Are these goals still relevant for you? How do you feel about the results that you are or are not getting? And again, that is a, you know, that can be like a 15 minute combo. We’ve got a great playbook, by the way, like the, the [00:15:30] Momentum Laser Coaching.

Momentum. Momentum is what we call it. Momentum Gym Jersey. I dunno if we, yeah, great. I love it because the whole thing is we’re trying to get a shift of energy. We we’re, to my mind, if you think about the value is experience, relationship, results, you’re kind of doubling down on all three. I think the experience of somebody asking you open-ended questions and really listening with care to what you’re saying is a great experience.

And in practice it helps you get results because it can be directive, and of course that’s gonna build the relationship. And particularly for a group model, having that [00:16:00] opportunity to do some one-on-one stuff can be really transformative. I think with the relationship and you know, again, like that, so this is great for like not only behavior change, but I think the, the retention piece.

Speaker: Yeah. Well I think one of the, one of my favorite books on coaching is one called Cove Coaching. Oh yeah. Yeah. And they talk about this triangle, right of, of coaching is about you, the person and your relationship. And the relationship is kinda, it’s the third entity that you manage. And I think that’s such a great model for thinking about employees that we work mm-hmm.

Where we manage. Mm-hmm. Clients that we work with. Friends. Yes. [00:16:30] You know, thinking about it’s what part of what I want makes it part of what they want and what they need. And then together there’s also this relationship. Yes. That also needs its own thing.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker: And it’s a little bit like, you know, thinking about how we think it’s like, you know is Yep.

You have to zoom out from the relationship and talk about how is this relationship going. Yeah. And we know the best. Marriages the best. Does business partnerships all take time to focus on how is this partnership going? Yeah. How is this relationship going? And so when you can do that with your coaches and step out of your day to day, [00:17:00] somewhat autopilot conversations mm-hmm.

And zoom out and say, are we with getting what we want out of this?

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker: Am I offering you what you need? Are you offering me what I need? What can I do more of, less of. Those relationships that really thrive and help each person mm-hmm. Grow, you know, and I think those are the kind of relationships we’re looking for in coaching, in managing people, in business partnerships.

And so I think, but Mark, you started off by saying that these. These are are skills that kind of transcend like a level lead. Yes. This is about leadership. This is about Yeah. And it’s true coaching skills really can [00:17:30] transcend so many, so many different levels of,

Speaker 2: of what Yes.

Speaker: Areas of our, of our lives.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And it, it, it is interesting too. I mean there’s certainly another dynamic too about like, you know, how might these skills apply to a spouse or a child or Yes. A friend, you know, and it’s interesting ’cause they can get a little bit. Front, and I can’t remember what it was that had remember like in like this was literally 2012.

We still lived above the clubhouse and you were just like practicing an I iPad stuff you or in the I pack stop. And we were practicing. You were like, okay, let’s do a. Do a coaching thing, you practice my thing. So I was like, oh, I’ll practice with you. And I can’t, it was, [00:18:00] it was something stupid. It was something about like the facility.

But I remembered, you know, like in real time you’re like, huh. ’cause you were like asking me questions and you’re like, oh, I, I kind of can’t do this. ’cause I actually have opinions about what should be happening with our staff. Yes. And this particular, wherever we were getting like, not like heated, but it was something, it was like a little fraud and we didn’t like what the team was doing.

So you’re trying to coach me about this thing that I’m getting heated about, but also you have an opinion and like I have opinions. Yeah. Harder to step outta that and be like the, the, you know, the, the humble mirror.

Speaker: I think it is one of the things, honestly, you know, going back to the fact that [00:18:30] I’m hiring right now for our team, one of the things I look for in the, in the interview process is someone who already has some sense of.

The lenses and filters they use to understand the world. Yeah. And that sounds like a little, a little woo woo, but you know what I’m saying, like, yeah. Yeah. I think one of, one of the hardest things to learn about coaching is to learn where are my biases? Yes. How am I listening with certain filters? Yes.

How am I, you know, what are the things. What is the, what’s my own baggage and past trauma that [00:19:00] I’m, my strong opinions and my judgment mm-hmm. That I’m bringing to the scenario and I’m looking at people in the interview process who I make people interview me, coach me during the interview process. Yes.

And I’m just looking for like, what are their impulses? What are the, are, are they recognizing their own judgment or their own bias in here? Can they put a, put aside their own thoughts and feelings for a second and just be available to me? And it’s someone who can really kind of master their own kind of like inner dialogue that that can.

Become a coach the fastest, right? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s not a deal breaker if they, [00:19:30] if they struggle with that on an interview, of course. But I’m looking for people and all of you, when you go to look for people who can be great trainers, you wanna find people who have some sense of self, some sense of understanding how their brain works.

They’re curious about how they listen and think and communicate. ’cause if they have just. That general awareness, they’re gonna be much more likely to learn these skills faster.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I, I think that’s right. You know, and it, it strikes me, part of that too seems to be a little bit of both, like humility and self emotional management.

Right? Because one thing that I don’t think I see [00:20:00] this as much like in our community, because quite frankly, the, you know, people that work with us are probably a little more self-selected to be interested in the emotional intelligence piece. But the sort of cliche of, you know, the trainer that’s like, we all get, you know.

Like, I got three kids and I got a six pack. You know, like we all have the same 24 hours in the day. Get it. You know, like, you know, this sort of like deeply judgmentally trainer thing. And that can both be like globally the the trainer that’s sort of like judgmental and just can’t understand what it’s like to not be them.

It can also be, and this happens to customer service and I [00:20:30] think this can creep up to anybody if we’re being. And I think we actually have to be aware this will happen to all of us where you start to get impatient because you’re under-resourced. You’ve had a long day and you are tired today about answering the same question again and again.

Yes, and maybe, you know, intellectually I’m being paid to answer the same question I’ve been answering for five years. I. But there’s a person in front of me that’s the first time that they have asked this question.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So I need to, you know, be humble about like, what’s going on with them, and I need to sort of manage myself so that I don’t make it their problem.

The fact that like, I’m having a bad [00:21:00] day and I’m tired of answering, you know, X question.

Speaker: Well, it’s one of the things we look for both currently on the bi unicorn teams. I remember team and something I looked for at MFF all the time is looking for that moment when the team kind of turns on the clients and there’s like a lot of gossip or mm-hmm.

You know, it’s one thing to let people vent from time to time.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker: It’s another thing for, there’s kind of that insidious talk about making the client the enemy or wrong or stupid. And you

Speaker 2: know, by the way, we don’t, I don’t think we like. I think we’re like pretty good about that. I like almost like a hundred percent at Biz for [00:21:30] Unicorns.

I think like I don’t really catch us there. No MFFI. I don’t wanna say we did it like a ton. But there were moments where I was like, I

Speaker: feel the characters,

Speaker 2: a lot of characters. There was a wide variety of humans in there. But yeah, I mean there were definitely moments like in M Fff land where, and I think like, you know, to the extent that I can remember anything correctly, I think we like more times than now we address it.

But I can definitely remember moments where it’s like, okay, I feel like we passed the point of like, this is useful, supportive. Sharing and some like harmless commiseration, and we’re now [00:22:00] like jumping in the ditch and like really just like shit talking and like that doesn’t feel good anymore, is not in line with sort of our aspirations of unconditional positive regard.

Speaker: Yeah. The one last thing I’ll say about just kind of managing your inner dialogue or inner monologue as, as, as it, as it relates to finding people who can become great coaches is, this is something I really struggled with when I was in coaching school back in literally 2012, was, you know, and you know, mark know you, you know my, many of you on the.

Podcast, listen. Know my background a little bit, but I grew up, you know, you know, [00:22:30] being a gay boy in southern Jersey, I grew up having a real reflex to be sassy and sarcastic as like a self protection mechanism. Mm-hmm. I would go to like making fun of other people first so that I could beat them to the punch from making fun of me.

And I have a really strong internal. Engine that that has optimized over several decades to be judgmental and sarcastic. A little bitchy, a little sassy. And when I first started doing coaching, I, I had to confront [00:23:00] that. It was really a very loud voice in my head that I’d never really recognized how strong it was until I had to do coaching where I was just like really sitting with my reaction and thoughts as people were talking.

A lot of my original reaction and thoughts and people were like. How fucking stupid is that? Or why would you, you know, I would go to this really judgmental place really, very quickly and naturally, and I still, I still can, I still have that switch I can flip on without, without, without thinking about it.

But I say all that to say that even for folks [00:23:30] who have, who have real strong internal monologue, that’s counterproductive. You can work with it. Yeah, you can, you can learn to redirect those impulses. I think that’s right. And change them at the very least, quiet them enough to, to do more productive work for now.

You know, and that’s something that I really had to tackle early on and probably took me several years to really figure out how to navigate that part of myself.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Because I, I think, I think there is an element of it also, you know, aside from the personal biography, also part of [00:24:00] Graphy is, is like, you know.

Could tell, like it is, you’re smart, you’re a smart person, and it’s like obvious. And by the way, it’s always obvious to everybody. That’s not us when we’re doing a dumb thing, right? That’s always the case. But you know, you’re a smart person, so you’re seeing like legit, objectively and impartial spectator might say that was an unwise thing that they did.

Sure. And maybe there’s a little extra heat on the ball, sort of an emotional judgment besides a dispassionate observation that that doesn’t make sense. Sure. You know, I, I think to the extent that I’ve struggled with the same thing. It’s, again, I, I, you know, wouldn’t [00:24:30] say like I’m the smartest person I ever lived, but like I feel like gym stuff I know, and I’ve had to really work harder and harder because I see the patterns.

Fast now, and I think if, if anything that has like served me as like, you know, maybe my upbringing, there’s a continued seed of deep, like, I don’t know, but I could be wrong of like insecurity, like maybe wanting to be liked. That prevents me from going for the juer the way that I think otherwise could, because on some level I’m always like kind of painfully and at times unhealthy, neurotically aware.

They’re like, I could, but I could be wrong. [00:25:00] I’m sure I’m right, but I could be wrong. Yeah. So,

Speaker: yeah. Yeah. Well I think, listen, I think this is the good. This is the work that good leaders do, right? Mm-hmm. Is to build our own self-awareness and our percent to manage ourselves. What

are

Speaker 2: your triggers?

Speaker: What are your things to take that space between Yes.

Stimulus and response and stretch it out and make the most of it. Yes.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: And so I think whether you wanna be a coach or a great leader or manager, friend, human husband. These are all good things to work on. Yeah. I think for all of you out there who are trying to hire people who are gonna be great coaches or looking yourself for a great coach, I, I think, you [00:25:30] know, if I was to boil it down to, you know, one or two things, I will look for someone who has a vast tool belt of different skills and tools and techniques they can bring to you.

And someone who has like, you know, real keen sense of self and self-awareness to know which is gonna be right in the moment for you and your relationship with them. And you, you can get a sense of that from someone, even just from a. Sample interview or a, you know, a sample coaching call or, you know, we do a, we do a 10 minute brainstorm sessions, and I’d hope you get in that 10 minutes a sense that you’re working with someone on our team.

Yeah. Is is the right, right. Or [00:26:00] not putting you first. We have a whole bunch of tools we can use. We’re really understanding your needs and you can do that in 10 minutes. Right. But I think those are the kind of things I’d look for if I’m hiring or hiring, you know, or a coach.

Speaker 2: I, I think that’s right. You know, I’ll give maybe like one final thought here, which is.

You know, your point about this being a trainable thing, like I often think about it and, and I will say this, I do think like at my best, and I’m certainly not always my best like that, I think is like, I, I feel like a superpower is just this aggressive, like unconditional positive regard. I’m [00:26:30] just gonna like you no matter what you do and happy to be here.

And even if I’ve got very tough stuff to share with you. Which again, I’d know is easier to do with a client than an employee necessarily. Sometimes it gets a little more fraught potentially, but with a client, like I think at my best, you know, I really pride in myself. I’m gonna tell you exactly what I think.

It’s not gonna be, there’s gonna be nothing I’m holding back. I’m gonna treat you like an adult, but I’ll also do it in a way that is both kind and reflection of how deeply I care about you and also my respect for your autonomy. I feel very strongly [00:27:00] knowing what I know, but like you’re, you know, it’s whenever I do like a mentorship day, the first, like one of the first caveats, it’s like you are the king or queen.

You are in charge of your business. You should do literally whatever you want, and I’m gonna love you as much as I do right now if you completely want to go your own way. But I’m also going to honor you by sharing exactly what I would do in your situation where I think will work best. But you’re in charge and I’m just honored and so grateful.

You’re giving me this chance to share what I might think is a, a gift to me.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That’s just. And that’s the, that’s the art of this work, right? It’s ’cause, you know, it’s one thing to have the confidence to [00:27:30] share your thoughts clearly and succinctly. Mm-hmm. Like that’s a useful skill.

And then be able to share the version of your thoughts that you think is most useful to them given where they’re at in this moment. Right. That’s the reach you want your coaches. To do right. Is to make it the right thing for you in the moment when you need it most. And, and I hope we’re doing that for most of our clients.

Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2: I know, I think we’re, I know we’re, we’re, we’re out of time here. I’m gonna land the plane, but I’ll maybe plan a seed for a future. One is sort of the, this sort of interest in, I’ll plan a teaser open loop here. The intricate and [00:28:00] interesting delicate situation where you have to. Interrupt or you have to like, decide in this moment, I’m gonna push back and I’m gonna, I’m gonna really be tougher on this person because of what I think they need, either because it’s what they need, or I’m, I’m sensing on kind of like not getting through, you know, the famous story about the, admittedly maybe now falling out of favor, but the very famous story, I, Kim Scott’s book, radical Candor, where Cheryl Sandberg takes her out.

She’s like. You’re not getting it. You sound like an idiot. You sound stupid, and no one is paying attention to you, which again, on balance [00:28:30] with no context, you’re like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But clearly, at least from Kim Scott’s perspective, the author of this book, she was like, that was like. I needed to hear that and I needed to hear it that way ’cause I, I wasn’t getting it.

And clearly there was so much trust built in the relationship that she looked on that as a, you know, not fun to hear, but ultimately like a positive and, and yes. You know, constructive.

Speaker: Yeah. We will conversation, we actually do a pocket, we actually just two months ago at a monthly coaches team meeting for business unicorns, we did a whole section on challenging clients.

Speaker 2: Mm.

Speaker: A whole extra, we, we can totally talk more about that on the podcast. Okay, great. You know, when is the right moment to [00:29:00] challenge?

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker: How did you challenge in a way that. Maintains the relationship. I see. Yes. Uh, but actually shifts things in a certain way. Yes,

Speaker 2: yes. We’re also relevant for leadership, so Great.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: More to chat about.

Speaker: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks as always for a great conversation Fisher. Hope you all got something out of this. Please do leave us a review and keep in touch. We wanna know what you want us to talk about. Go enjoy your week, my friends, and I’ll see you on the next one.

Speaker 2: Feed Kes.

Desperate. Need for affirmation, please. He’s desperate. Look at him. He’s so sad. This is your fault, by the way. It’s give him [00:29:30] feedback. Okay. Bye. Bye Los hers.